Car and Driver: Z vs. Mustang Mach 1

[Houston.RZ34]

Im thinking of the early model CBA brakes with the smaller front rotors; from what I read it seemed like they could suffer fade somewhat easily during high performance driving. I had thought that was one of the reasons Nissan switched to bigger rotors for ‘12+ models. Though I’ve never driven one personally so I could just be mistaken .

Seems like a popular mod in the GTR community for those with CBA brakes is to switch to bigger front rotors, and I’m wondering if maybe that’s something the new Z needs as well to deal with the heat from extra weight n power.

I was speaking of a buddy's '09 but to be fair it was stock. I can see guys with big HP numbers looking for bigger brakes.

 

[trackratZ]

Even if the Z came with Sport Cup 2s, I still don’t think it can keep up with the Mach 1, chassis tuning and suspension modes just are not there yet.

It would be an interesting comparo tho.

 

[280driver]

Looks like Ford is more than happy to take this gift wrapped comparison and milk it for what they can. Funny they don’t mention the straight line performance numbers.

https://fordauthority.com/2022/06/ford-mustang-mach-1-beats-2023-nissan-z-in-new-comparison-test/

 

[MHockey17]

Braking system performance is defined by several characteristics, such as
Brake fluid
Master cylinder piston size
Stroke
Brake lines
Caliper piston volume (combined on multi pot)
Caliper piston surface area
Caliper rigidity
Caliper heat management
Brake pads
Rotor
ABS performance

Very difficult to say where the Akebononos let down. They look great, have lots of pistons, are super lightweight, but have a very bad reputation.

On the Infiniti cars that had them optional (Infiniti=heavy BTW) they didn't perform any better in initial braking against the steel 2 pot calipers. After repeated stops, they showed superiority over the steel calipers for resistance against heat soak. Doesn't mean they're good, just better than those particular steel calipers.

I have OEM pads in my Akebononos, so I'm not an Akebonono expert. I just know that they are "fine" in my 3900# Q60, but with 255/285 tires, I don't think the abs is needed in the dry, as the brakes can't lock up my tires, on my car. I would suppose I'd be happy with them in a lighter car with more aggressive pads and good tires.

Not sure if they mentioned whether ABS engaged in their brake test or not, but for that pure stopping distance metric the tires could definitely be holding the Z back. Though I agree many other factors involved in braking performance.

From my own driving impressions and what I’ve heard from other 370Z owners, the Akebono hardware itself is more than adequate for track n street, with quality pads n fluid. Seems like only the serious track drivers require a brake system with more potential.

However I could understand how they’d feel less than stellar in the much heavier Qs. I guess the question is if the weight of new Z has crossed that “boundary” or not.

 

[BurninateZ]

It really comes off as if CD is looking for reasons to nitpick the Z. Why do these mis-match comparisons? For me, the big story was that the Z out performed the Mach 1 except for handling (tires….again..), but that was glossed over in their story.

If only Nissan offered the drive-down-the-road-and-buy-better-tyres package

 

[Raven1]

Not sure if they mentioned whether ABS engaged in their brake test or not, but for that pure stopping distance metric the tires could definitely be holding the Z back. Though I agree many other factors involved in braking performance.

From my own driving impressions and what I’ve heard from other 370Z owners, the Akebono hardware itself is more than adequate for track n street, with quality pads n fluid. Seems like only the serious track drivers require a brake system with more potential.

However I could understand how they’d feel less than stellar in the much heavier Qs. I guess the question is if the weight of new Z has crossed that “boundary” or not.

Seems Like 6 Piston Fronts with 14" Rotors W/ 4 Piston Rears W/ 13" Rotors and Slightly Larger ID Master Cylinder Should Resolve Any Brake Issues . . .

 

[takemorepills]

If only Nissan offered the drive-down-the-road-and-buy-better-tyres package

And wheels.

I'd love to let them keep their black wheels and get a credit.

 

[Kbl911]

I agree that C&D seems to be searching for excuses to point out the flaws in the new Z. They do offer occasional faint praise, mainly with respect to exterior design, but how many ways must we demonstrate that Nissan has made a critical error in their tire choice? How much more do we need to belabor the idea that Nissan Z interiors are budget-oriented?

It does start to feel a bit like piling on for the sake of doing so, even if the complaints are valid.

 

[BobDigi5060]

Z vs GT Premium is a fair fight, Mach 1 is the "Nismo" Mustang - it's the GT350 replacement.

What's next? - Z vs SS/1LE?, Z vs Hellcat?, Z vs GRMN Supra?, Z vs M2/3/4?, Z vs <Insert AMG here>?, Z vs Cayman GT4?

Come on man. You don't even own the car and sound salty. No Nismo Z exist right now.

Z v Hellcat? Come on son. It's just a comparison. Build what you want and how you want.

Looks like Ford is more than happy to take this gift wrapped comparison and milk it for what they can. Funny they don’t mention the straight line performance numbers.

https://fordauthority.com/2022/06/ford-mustang-mach-1-beats-2023-nissan-z-in-new-comparison-test/

Mod for mod... No comparison. I have a 10r80 5.0 if any Z driver in West Texas wants to find out the hard way.

I agree that C&D seems to be searching for excuses to point out the flaws in the new Z. They do offer occasional faint praise, mainly with respect to exterior design, but how many ways must we demonstrate that Nissan has made a critical error in their tire choice? How much more do we need to belabor the idea that Nissan Z interiors are budget-oriented?

It does start to feel a bit like piling on for the sake of doing so, even if the complaints are valid.

I can take tires not meeting the price point and I could live with that interior.

The car is overpriced by about $5k, but one of a kind. Before it's too late to buy a new Camaro LT1 I'd like to compare the two.

 

[Kbl911]

The car is overpriced by about $5k, but one of a kind.

Facts.

 

[Raven1]

The reason I keep going on about the 6 piston front 4 piston rear is about what I've noticed about my 07 GT. Initially the OEM 4 Piston Front / 2 Piston Rear Brembos with OEM Pads were more than adequate. Having installed all the breathing mods including cams and now having moved to a region where the climate has daily perfect driving conditions I'm finding the brakes are no longer adequate.

On the streets, in traffic, 60 mph and below the brakes work excellent and as expected. AZ streets have very high speed drivers and the flow of traffic is ALWAYS 10 mph over posted limit.

The freeways however are a completely different animal entirely. Posted speed limits are 65 but the flow of traffic is never less than 75 and on some freeways I find I'm doing 85 by simply moving with the flow of traffic. I do need to add that on many stretches of the FWYs the road conditions are pristine, flat, smooth and extremely well maintained. Also, I'm finding that at these speeds the brakes still work well.

What I have noticed is a couple of times I found that the braking at higher speeds it is not as robust as in the lower speeds. I'll elaborate, the car height is the wheels are flush with the fenders using BC Racing Type 'BR' (True Rear Coil Over) in the 'RS' configuration (Rubber Top Mounts for a more OEM Ride Characteristics) and at the time was running the factory sway bars but have since installed the Hotchkis Sway Bars front and rear.

There was a very modified / boosted Honda wanting to race who was driving very aggressively in freeway traffic (it was late evening when traffic was light but still a lot of vehicles out) and seeing how dangerous he was being, having about 1 mile forward visibility with no vehicles in my lane, I put my foot in it to get away from the guy. The traffic congestion made it impossible for the kid to get to me. I got created the distance I wanted to be rid of him, looking down I saw my speed was 130 MPH and it surprised the hell out of me. Didn't use brakes, just let off the throttle and the car quickly slowed to 109MPH and was back down to 90MPH again by lifting off on the throttle. What surprised me most was how stable the car is at speed with the front end never getting light or experiencing lift off. In this section the road wasn't very smooth with cracks and transitioning from asphalt to aging cracked concrete to newer very smooth concrete at speed was very bumpy and also smooth. Still noted the car was very stable and never wanted to dart off either right or left. Again I lifted off the throttle and didn't use brakes shifting weight forward so maybe that would cause lift on the rebound if braking at that speed.

I had my wife and doggo in the car and as I was in the moment and didn't need mind to heavily use brakes as there was literally nobody in front of me. I was lightly on the brakes to slow the Zee down. I was in the HOV lane and the Honda was literally in every other lane chasing to get along side me. I did note that at 130 he wasn't able to stay with me. At around 110 he was back, I hit 130 twice and he lagged behind, maybe his gearing was limiting him but I believe most Hondas should top out right at 130.

Finally we came up on traffic all around and now the kid is very aggressive. He's now right next to me and wanted to have a go. Seeing this kids driving, seeing the cheap pot metal OEM Calipers, at these speeds if he get's in trouble there's no way he'll be able to stop or control his car. I realized he's going to get himself killed or worse wind up causing another car with a family. I slowed to 85, quickly moved from the HOV lane to the Fast lane, turned on my emergency flashers and just sat there. Fortunately he quickly broke off and sprinted ahead, then got off the fwy 2 exits later.

One thing to note, weeks after the incident the wife was following me in the Gladiator. I was doing 85 mph in the Zee, I asked for a speed check and she responded 78 mph. So it would seem the speedo needs to be calibrated. Simply stated, the 130 was perceived, actual speed needs to be determined. But if the Honda Fit tops at 130 and I had a 5 to 7 and gaining lead on him. Deductively actual speed is decidedly much greater than 130mph.

For all the track guys, would have bigger 6 / 4 Piston brakes given me more control? At those speeds is it a benefit or no? Or by changing out OEM pads + drilled / slotted rotors to after market while also installing stainless steel lines give me the braking I need?

I never track the car, this is my daily but my daily conditions will occasionally get me into these higher speeds. My WHOLE World Rides Right next To Me In The Car Literally Daily!

Recap: What best fits the daily requirement.

Opt 1. OEM Brembo
a. Upgraded Pads (Hawk HPS or what ever consensus recommends)
b. Install Stainless Steel Brake Lines
c. Drilled Slotted OEM Brembo Rotors

Opt 2. Wilwood (or Comparable)
a. Upgrade to 6 Piston Front / 4 Piston Rear Calipers
b. Install Stainless Steel Brake Lines
c. Drilled Slotted 13" Rotors Front Rear (2 reasons, Not a track car, prefer not to change rims in order to accommodate new caliper size. Prefer to stay OEM dimensions)

Thanks Everyone - Your Inputs Are Greatly Appreciated !!

 

[rocksandblues]

The reason I keep going on about the 6 piston front 4 piston rear is about what I've noticed about my 07 GT. Initially the OEM 4 Piston Front / 2 Piston Rear Brembos with OEM Pads were more than adequate. Having installed all the breathing mods including cams and now having moved to a region where the climate has daily perfect driving conditions I'm finding the brakes are no longer adequate.

On the streets, in traffic, 60 mph and below the brakes work excellent and as expected. AZ streets have very high speed drivers and the flow of traffic is ALWAYS 10 mph over posted limit.

The freeways however are a completely different animal entirely. Posted speed limits are 65 but the flow of traffic is never less than 75 and on some freeways I find I'm doing 85 by simply moving with the flow of traffic. I do need to add that on many stretches of the FWYs the road conditions are pristine, flat, smooth and extremely well maintained. Also, I'm finding that at these speeds the brakes still work well.

What I have noticed is a couple of times I found that the braking at higher speeds it is not as robust as in the lower speeds. I'll elaborate, the car height is the wheels are flush with the fenders using BC Racing Type 'BR' (True Rear Coil Over) in the 'RS' configuration (Rubber Top Mounts for a more OEM Ride Characteristics) and at the time was running the factory sway bars but have since installed the Hotchkis Sway Bars front and rear.

There was a very modified / boosted Honda wanting to race who was driving very aggressively in freeway traffic (it was late evening when traffic was light but still a lot of vehicles out) and seeing how dangerous he was being, having about 1 mile forward visibility with no vehicles in my lane, I put my foot in it to get away from the guy. The traffic congestion made it impossible for the kid to get to me. I got created the distance I wanted to be rid of him, looking down I saw my speed was 130 MPH and it surprised the hell out of me. Didn't use brakes, just let off the throttle and the car quickly slowed to 109MPH and was back down to 90MPH again by lifting off on the throttle. What surprised me most was how stable the car is at speed with the front end never getting light or experiencing lift off. In this section the road wasn't very smooth with cracks and transitioning from asphalt to aging cracked concrete to newer very smooth concrete at speed was very bumpy and also smooth. Still noted the car was very stable and never wanted to dart off either right or left. Again I lifted off the throttle and didn't use brakes shifting weight forward so maybe that would cause lift on the rebound if braking at that speed.

I had my wife and doggo in the car and as I was in the moment and didn't need mind to heavily use brakes as there was literally nobody in front of me. I was lightly on the brakes to slow the Zee down. I was in the HOV lane and the Honda was literally in every other lane chasing to get along side me. I did note that at 130 he wasn't able to stay with me. At around 110 he was back, I hit 130 twice and he lagged behind, maybe his gearing was limiting him but I believe most Hondas should top out right at 130.

Finally we came up on traffic all around and now the kid is very aggressive. He's now right next to me and wanted to have a go. Seeing this kids driving, seeing the cheap pot metal OEM Calipers, at these speeds if he get's in trouble there's no way he'll be able to stop or control his car. I realized he's going to get himself killed or worse wind up causing another car with a family. I slowed to 85, quickly moved from the HOV lane to the Fast lane, turned on my emergency flashers and just sat there. Fortunately he quickly broke off and sprinted ahead, then got off the fwy 2 exits later.

One thing to note, weeks after the incident the wife was following me in the Gladiator. I was doing 85 mph in the Zee, I asked for a speed check and she responded 78 mph. So it would seem the speedo needs to be calibrated. Simply stated, the 130 was perceived, actual speed needs to be determined. But if the Honda Fit tops at 130 and I had a 5 to 7 and gaining lead on him. Deductively actual speed is decidedly much greater than 130mph.

For all the track guys, would have bigger 6 / 4 Piston brakes given me more control? At those speeds is it a benefit or no? Or by changing out OEM pads + drilled / slotted rotors to after market while also installing stainless steel lines give me the braking I need?

I never track the car, this is my daily but my daily conditions will occasionally get me into these higher speeds. My WHOLE World Rides Right next To Me In The Car Literally Daily!

Recap: What best fits the daily requirement.

Opt 1. OEM Brembo
a. Upgraded Pads (Hawk HPS or what ever consensus recommends)
b. Install Stainless Steel Brake Lines
c. Drilled Slotted OEM Brembo Rotors

Opt 2. Wilwood (or Comparable)
a. Upgrade to 6 Piston Front / 4 Piston Rear Calipers
b. Install Stainless Steel Brake Lines
c. Drilled Slotted 13" Rotors Front Rear (2 reasons, Not a track car, prefer not to change rims in order to accommodate new caliper size. Prefer to stay OEM dimensions)

Thanks Everyone - Your Inputs Are Greatly Appreciated !!

I was with you until you said you went up to 130 to "get away" from him.

You were racing. If you truly value who is riding with you- you had several much safer options. If that is your choice and mind set- fine race- but don't claim you did it for the safety of loved ones. lol

 

[Raven1]

I was with you until you said you went up to 130 to "get away" from him.

You were racing. If you truly value who is riding with you- you had several much safer options. If that is your choice and mind set- fine race- but don't claim you did it for the safety of loved ones. lol

You misunderstand, I wasn't racing, I put my foot in it to create distance, when I looked down I saw what my speed was and immediately slowed. When he came back after me (seemed like he was head hunting) I put my foot in it again and the speedo quickly climbed again an dude kept coming. The 2nd time is when he was able to get riht beside me in the fast lane. That's when I hit the emergency flashers and switched lanes moving behind away from him and left the flashers on.

I appreciate the new perspective on how someone could mistake that course of action as baiting them to race. Seems like the next time it happens just slow down, switch to a slow lane and let them move along. Thank You for pointing that out

Honestly, I don't like the fact that people are always aggressive to me in traffic and especially on the FWY Literally EVERY Time I Drive The Car! All I'm trying to do is enjoy the drive without people messing me all the time.

Bob, with your track knowledge, any thoughts on upgrading the brake system ??

 

[Mr981]

I think a more interesting comparison might be the Mustang Ecoboost with the HPP/Handling Package.
Base price is $33K w/o the handling package--GT brakes.HD suspension 3.55 rear, LSD, larger radiator. Handling package/mandatory premium package $4.7K get Mag shocks/wider wheels and Pirelli Cora rubber and 6 pot front caliper + premium interior. Weight around 3500 lbs.
At 330HP, acceleration would be around 5 seconds 0-60, but on the Grand Course at the VIR lightening Lap, it was only 5 seconds back of the 3.0 Supra:
https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...d-mustang-23l-high-performance-lightning-lap/

Since the Supra 3.0 was 2.5 seconds ahead of Z at the shorter Willow Springs course, making me think the Mustang HPP HP car at $40K would be very close to the Z auto --$51K--on the Grand course at VIR.

 

[280driver]

Guess what parked next to me yesterday LOL!