Another catch can worry...

[trackratZ]

Guys, I've read several threads here about the brands available out there - Z1, Mishimoto, etc. - and some of the issues with installation, access etc. But, need to get some feedback mainly on use pitfalls related to actual warranty work. I know the advantage of these catch cans, esp. on tracking sessions and long term valve crud from DI. Reason asking, I will be at Firebird Raceway in a few months and wonder if these cans will give me issues with any future warranty work due to indirect causes by the catch can. Who here had actual problems with dealers and denied warranty work? I'm talking about if the cans were properly installed, no boost or oil leaks, but still denied, a bit leary about installing mine, still in box.....

 

[haohmaru]

If you ever have engine problems, they absolutely will flag it. If you're worried, don't install it or do any engine mods that you can't easily remove before bringing it back to the dealer.

As far as the crud, you can always plan to have the valves cleaned at one point.

 

[KrackaC8]

DI coking is an incredibly overblown worry across every car forum out there. These aren't 1990s BMW/VWs.

Catch-cans are a solution looking for a problem, and in fact create more issues than they solve by adding restriction to the crankcase ventilation system and slowing down vapor velocity (and increasing crankcase pressure).

Run quality motor oil that meets all modern specs with regular oil changes and you'll be set.

This was a frequent topic on the CorvetteForum, like it is on most, and I actually removed my C7 & C8 intake manifolds multiple times just to prove there was no issue throughout the years/miles of use.

The majority of what catch-cans trap is water vapor from the crankcase that is created during the engine warm-up process. This vapor would normally be consumed during the combustion process and sent out through the tailpipes.

 

[BigBlue]

That response is on the money. Also stick with top tier fuel. The people most likely to end up with this issue are the regular Joe's and Jane's that get around to doing their oil change when they get the service lamp. More so than not it'll have an easy 1k over the already 10K OCI. Worse yet if the car sees more short trips than not. I'm coming up on 40K. Just got back from a 2k+ round trip to the Keys. Got another business trip (aren't they all) to TN. that means I'm in the Dragon's neighborhood again. This car is showing no signs of carbon build up and yes the truth is, a steady diet of WFO keeps the carbon away. As a PSA, if you can't get lucky while at the Keys you just ain't trying.

 

[KrackaC8]

That response is on the money. Also stick with top tier fuel. The people most likely to end up with this issue are the regular Joe's and Jane's that get around to doing their oil change when they get the service lamp. More so than not it'll have an easy 1k over the already 10K OCI. Worse yet if the car sees more short trips than not. I'm coming up on 40K. Just got back from a 2k+ round trip to the Keys. Got another business trip (aren't they all) to TN. that means I'm in the Dragon's neighborhood again. This car is showing no signs of carbon build up and yes the truth is, a steady diet of WFO keeps the carbon away. As a PSA, if you can't get lucky while at the Keys you just ain't trying.

/THREAD

 

[Bumflik]

That response is on the money. Also stick with top tier fuel. The people most likely to end up with this issue are the regular Joe's and Jane's that get around to doing their oil change when they get the service lamp. More so than not it'll have an easy 1k over the already 10K OCI. Worse yet if the car sees more short trips than not. I'm coming up on 40K. Just got back from a 2k+ round trip to the Keys. Got another business trip (aren't they all) to TN. that means I'm in the Dragon's neighborhood again. This car is showing no signs of carbon build up and yes the truth is, a steady diet of WFO keeps the carbon away. As a PSA, if you can't get lucky while at the Keys you just ain't trying.

I was just on rt 129 back in April for the weekend. What a ride! Like being roller coaster for 50 min! Did it also in 2019.

 

[takemorepills]

I have an OSC catch can on my Titan with the DI VK56.

I have programmed the maintenance reminder in the truck to pop up every 5k miles (same as my oil change) to remind me to empty it.
It's about 1/2 full at that point, about 1/3c of oil.

My commute is very short, about 12 minutes every day. Even in winter, there's never any water in the catch can.

So, that 1/3c of oil is in the can, not getting coked onto the back of the intake valves. Will it prevent any buildup, no..... But I'm 100% convinced it reduces buildup.

When I first installed it, I was prepared to remove it if it had been collecting water. Apparently, some engine types with aftermarket catch can will collect water (GM V8 will do that). Water might collect quickly enough that the catch can would need frequent attention. Oil sits on top of water and if the level gets too high, you might get liquid oil into the intake, which I reckon could be more trouble than it's worth. I don't know what the consequences of that would be, but I wouldn't want to find out. Does not occur on the Nissan VK56. Also, that's why I have the reminder programmed into the truck, I think liquid oil would in the intake would be bad.

Regarding the comment about using top tier fuel, oh really? Whatever fuel you are using never touches the backside of the intake valves on a DI only engine. Fuel quality has no impact on backside valve buildup. Go ahead and use top tier fuel for other reasons, but don't think it will help for carbon buildup.

I have had the oil changed at the dealership and I have asked them to empty the catch can too, and they obliged. Fortunately I never needed to use the generous Nissan warranty for any mechanical concerns, but I would warn people that the discretion lies with each individual dealership if they hassle you or not. My dealership had no issues with my catch can, but had I needed an expensive engine repair, they may have been cool about it or they could be dicks about it. But, I knew my truck wouldn't be needing engine work, it's one of the reasons I bought it.

That's my experience with the VK56. Does the same apply to the VR30? I don't know, and I don't have any reliable information. It could very well be that a catch can is unnecessary or harmful on a VR30, although I doubt it'd be harmful. I kept my previous port injected Titan 14 years, so I intend to do whatever to reduce carbon buildup in my new Titan.

As a future Z owner, I never thought that a catch can would be a priority soon after getting a Z. I'll consider it. Nissan DI engines seem to resist buildup pretty well, the VR30 is probably going to be fine for a while.

Regarding the VR30:
I don't see how a catch can would be beneficial for track use, but then again I don't track and I don't currently own a Z.

You don't ever want to let it get so full that it could release liquid oil into the intake system. You need to check it often, and I don't know if the Z has configurable reminders like the Titan does.

Installation, how easy to install, remove and revert back to stock if needed (warranty)?

Regarding warranty, it's definitely something to consider. The VR30 engine is expensive, and a dealership and/or Nissan could deny a claim no matter what the Magnusson act says. So, tread carefully.

I suggest researching the Infiniti forums, the VR30 has been out for 10 years now and those forums should have robust discussions and maybe even some convincing "proof"

For me, during warranty period on a new Z, I'd wait on a catch can. Especially if it's difficult to remove before a major warranty claim. You can install one after warranty if research indicates it may be useful. Other Nissan DI engines seem to develop buildup that needs to be cleaned by 80-100k miles, much better than my Mk7 GTI could do.....

 

[Bumflik]

Im modded like crazy so I voided my warranty and im cool with it. I know the risks associated with hardcore mods. I buy sports cars to push em and mod the 'F' out of em.

 

[Zplz]

… Regarding warranty, it's definitely something to consider. The VR30 engine is expensive, and a dealership and/or Nissan could deny a claim no matter what the Magnusson act says. So, tread carefully.

I suggest researching the Infiniti forums, the VR30 has been out for 10 years now and those forums should have robust discussions and maybe even some convincing "proof"

For me, during warranty period on a new Z, I'd wait on a catch can. Especially if it's difficult to remove before a major warranty claim. You can install one after warranty if research indicates it may be useful. Other Nissan DI engines seem to develop buildup that needs to be cleaned by 80-100k miles, much better than my Mk7 GTI could do.....

The Z is my fun car, so I haven’t been racking up the miles with it. Just enough to keep it loose and moving. At the rate I’m going, it’ll be 16 to 20 years before it would most likely need a cleaning. I’m erring on the conservative side by going without the catch can during the warranty period, in particular. One less excuse for getting slow-rolled by a dealer or Nissan if I have to make a claim. The motor is indeed not exactly inexpensive.

 

[jamesmcintoshjr]

catch cans are sorta vehicle dependent in terms of their benefit. My type R I would empty a shot of oil/water (mostly oil) every other oil change. On old EJ25 subarus catch cans are a necessity not just for capturing oil vapour, but the oil vapour that makes it into the combustion chamber effectively lowers your octane and in subarus they would encourage detonation when pushed. That being said, I'm in the camp of "just clean it later" as I also put little mileage on the Z.

 

[haohmaru]

catch cans are sorta vehicle dependent in terms of their benefit. My type R I would empty a shot of oil/water (mostly oil) every other oil change. On old EJ25 subarus catch cans are a necessity not just for capturing oil vapour, but the oil vapour that makes it into the combustion chamber effectively lowers your octane and in subarus they would encourage detonation when pushed. That being said, I'm in the camp of "just clean it later" as I also put little mileage on the Z.

Absolutely, the Subaru DIT engines need their first cleaning at about 60k and that is with quality oil, regular changes and you know they aren't being driven gingerly. The idea that they do nothing and no car benefits from them is wrong. Restrictive cans and hoses and frozen cans are valid points however.

I'd like to see some boroscope pics of 60k VR30's with and without catchcans.

 

[Bumflik]

These DI motors need valves walnut blasted after 40,000 miles with or without catch cans anyway. Oil intervals with full Synthetic top quality oil every 3K and im gonna just say it 5W weight oil. Heresy!!!!

 

[takemorepills]

Oil catch yes or no? | Infiniti Q50 Forum https://share.google/WUYVoecgZIJdYosc5

Above is one link to a bunch of good info I found when searching "Infiniti VR30 catch can" you may need to research both Q50 and Q60 forums.

Some VR30 owners report some water in the catch can, and suggest in very cold areas with deep freezes to consider that the water may freeze, and in prolonged frozen weather it may actually block the system. For someone with milder winters and minimal long term freezing should be ok. The catch can in my Titan is directly behind the radiator fan and would be above freezing most of the time. The main concern is where the catch can sits in an engine bay and if it's exposed to heat that will thaw it. Remember that the OEM lines don't freeze, only concern is if the can itself gets too cold and never warms up

Mishimoto now includes preformed hoses for those with OEM OCD

Only buy aluminum catch cans, many bought fancy "CF" catch cans only to have them fall apart...

 

[Xylander]

I can't speak for every manufacturer, but I am fully versed in what Dodge, Chevrolet, and Ford have been doing with catch cans. In rare occasion, cars like the GT500 CFTP comes with an oil separator from the factory. But, for those that do not, the OEMs have been cracking down on the use of them in regards to warranty claims. I've never had a warranty claim with this Nissan, so... my experience with them is nil.

For most minor warranty claims (ex. claims under $1,000), they don't argue warranty work unless there's obvious violations (tune, non-standard powertrain equipment, etc.). They'd rather pay out the small claim than pay $5,000+ for a lawyer to defend it in court. Where people are running into trouble is for things like catastrophic engine failures or some failure that resulted in a catastrophic loss of the vehicle. When you have a 5-figure repair bill, both the dealership and the OEM are going to do everything in their power to find ways to decline the warranty. If a person is on the level with a stock car, they're fine. But, when a person has some small amount of mods, they're going to try and link it to the issue.

A catch can is an interesting issue, as if it is working and is installed correctly, they don't do any harm. However, it is considered a modification to the emissions system, as the PCV is used predominantly to vent excess crankcase pressure and contaminated emissions through the system, on in to the engine and ultimately into the catalytic converter. Therefore, the catch can is a modification to the emissions system.

That modification is in violation of the Clean Air Act of 1975 and OEMs have been declining warranties with increasing frequency, citing "evidence of criminal tampering with the vehicle's emissions control system(s)." Thus, it end-rounds the Magnusson-Moss Act provisions that state that a part must be proven to contribute to a failure while denying a claim. In this case, they're stating that if a transmission fails, they could deny it due to the tampered exhaust which, being illegal, should render the vehicle not roadworthy and it was therefore being used against the terms of the warranty agreement. Therefore, a catch can is becoming a way for OEMs to patently deny anything they want.

Now, there's plenty of legal means of recourse. They're simply banking on the fact that it takes 2+ years and tens of thousands of dollars to bring a case against an OEM and without the Magnusson-Moss Act defense, plaintiffs are going to have to expend a lot of money just to get to trial and be forced to try and defend that what they did wasn't illegal and be without said car for 1-2 years on average.

So, this is definitely becoming a thing.

 

[Xylander]

Oil catch yes or no? | Infiniti Q50 Forum https://share.google/WUYVoecgZIJdYosc5

Above is one link to a bunch of good info I found when searching "Infiniti VR30 catch can" you may need to research both Q50 and Q60 forums.

Some VR30 owners report some water in the catch can, and suggest in very cold areas with deep freezes to consider that the water may freeze, and in prolonged frozen weather it may actually block the system. For someone with milder winters and minimal long term freezing should be ok. The catch can in my Titan is directly behind the radiator fan and would be above freezing most of the time. The main concern is where the catch can sits in an engine bay and if it's exposed to heat that will thaw it. Remember that the OEM lines don't freeze, only concern is if the can itself gets too cold and never warms up

Mishimoto now includes preformed hoses for those with OEM OCD

Only buy aluminum catch cans, many bought fancy "CF" catch cans only to have them fall apart...

Water in a catch can is not abnormal for any vehicle, really. Crankcase gasses include fuel vapors. Most fuels for sale in the US are ethanol enriched to some degree, which is hydrophillic. They will suck some amount of water over time. The higher the ethanol content, the more water you'll collect over time from the dirty side of the PCV.