Thoughts on brakes

[Thefunk]

From my experience with my Z Performance+, z1 2pc rotors+steel braided lines+master cylinder brace+rbf600 dot4 fluid+carbotech pads, fantastic on the track. If you want I can send you a link to a video from my most recent track day (I'm still slow forgive me) but you can see how stable the car is on corners and braking into corners.

 

[5thZ]

From my experience with my Z Performance+, z1 2pc rotors+steel braided lines+master cylinder brace+rbf600 dot4 fluid+carbotech pads, fantastic on the track. If you want I can send you a link to a video from my most recent track day (I'm still slow forgive me) but you can see how stable the car is on corners and braking into corners.

I appreciate that, but I already know how the Akebonos work with those components on the track. They are really great for stock or lightly modded cars. I likely will never push the car past 500whp on the track anyways so I am starting to think this topic/question is moot for me and that Akebono calipers and my paragon 2-pieces rotors, SS brake lines, carbotech pads, etc etc will suffice for now until I get my big boy pants on and care about lap times.

I only care right now about seeing improvements - that's my goal, improving every session, if only a little, by staying disciplined, listening to instructor, and improving on the fundamentals - without hitting a wall or having an off-track excursion.

I thought it might make more sense to sell my new Akebono's, Paragon rotors, etc to get a larger BBK, but now that I am researching a bit more and will never turn it past 500whp on the track I think I will be good to go.

Does anyone know how much power the GT4 race car had? edit - https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41844976/nissan-z-gt4-specs-pricing/

 

[FSUZ33]

Off-topic, but interesting how the Z GT4 has the rear strut tower brace welded in to the cage, but still has a screw, assuming for adjustment.

 

[Thefunk]

I appreciate that, but I already know how the Akebonos work with those components on the track. They are really great for stock or lightly modded cars. I likely will never push the car past 500whp on the track anyways so I am starting to think this topic/question is moot for me and that Akebono calipers and my paragon 2-pieces rotors, SS brake lines, carbotech pads, etc etc will suffice for now until I get my big boy pants on and care about lap times.

I only care right now about seeing improvements - that's my goal, improving every session, if only a little, by staying disciplined, listening to instructor, and improving on the fundamentals - without hitting a wall or having an off-track excursion.

I thought it might make more sense to sell my new Akebono's, Paragon rotors, etc to get a larger BBK, but now that I am researching a bit more and will never turn it past 500whp on the track I think I will be good to go.

Does anyone know how much power the GT4 race car had? edit - https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41844976/nissan-z-gt4-specs-pricing/

Well if you truly care about lap times in the Z, I suggest gutting it and turning it into a dedicated track/race car like the GT4 Nismo.

 

[NocturnalEmber]

I'd upgrade to the 15" Z Nismo brakes. Also worth mentioning, the master cylinder on the nismo has an internal bore that is *slightly* larger; Idk how significant that is, if at all.

Also worth noting the Z Nismo has brake cooling ducts that I believe mount on the sway bar? You could probably (like 95% of everything the Nismo Z has) just bolt it onto your performance.

 

[Drago86]

I have read multiple other sources saying they don't, and tire and suspension choice is more effective at stopping the car quickly but I am very interested in hearing more about your thoughts and if what I read was wrong I'd like the option to learn. Looking at your YouTube you clearly have much more experience than me and I'd love to learn and hear your thoughts if you're willing.

Yes, I am fully aware it will not ever beat the Porsche GT 2 RS in a race. I'm not racing. I meant Porsche GT 2 RS spec, WHP/TQ. I fully admit it's an ego thing also because my GT-R had 700whp

No you're correct bigger brakes are for heat management not "stopping the car faster". Even a garbage set of stock drum brakes from the 80's has enough torque to lock the wheels up, so by definition you're limited by tires not brakes. Now that drum brake will fade like a mofo so it won't be able to stop you a second, third or fourth time; That's what bigger brakes buy you, heat management.


There's a lot of non-technical people replying to you that lack critical thinking. Why would ABS systems exist if stock braking systems lacked the braking torque to even lock the wheels in the first place?


If I were you, I would upgrade to the Nismo calipers and discs as their huge and fairly cheap compare to BBK's. Check that the part number for the master cylinder is the same between sport and nismo (it is the same for performance and nismo) and you're golden.

 

[5thZ]

No you're correct bigger brakes are for heat management not "stopping the car faster". Even a garbage set of stock drum brakes from the 80's has enough torque to lock the wheels up, so by definition you're limited by tires not brakes. Now that drum brake will fade like a mofo so it won't be able to stop you a second, third or fourth time; That's what bigger brakes buy you, heat management.


There's a lot of non-technical people replying to you that lack critical thinking. Why would ABS systems exist if stock braking systems lacked the braking torque to even lock the wheels in the first place?


If I were you, I would upgrade to the Nismo calipers and discs as their huge and fairly cheap compare to BBK's. Check that the part number for the master cylinder is the same between sport and nismo (it is the same for performance and nismo) and you're golden.

That's what I've read in the past as well. Someone used math to explain it once (over my head).

Luckily, the Nismo calipers are on sale right now, but I do have two and a half full sets of rotors (1.5 bring Paragon) and two sets of pads (one being Carbotech) for the uninstalled Akebono calipers.

I think I'm just going to use them for now as I had a good experience with that combo at road Atlanta without overheating at all. The other Z and G that regularly go to track events also has the Akebonos. The only person who didn't was my instructor who does endurance racing on a team. I think I'll revisit upgrading the calipers once I use up what I've got.

Thanks everyone!

 

[rocksandblues]

No you're correct bigger brakes are for heat management not "stopping the car faster". Even a garbage set of stock drum brakes from the 80's has enough torque to lock the wheels up, so by definition you're limited by tires not brakes. Now that drum brake will fade like a mofo so it won't be able to stop you a second, third or fourth time; That's what bigger brakes buy you, heat management.


There's a lot of non-technical people replying to you that lack critical thinking. Why would ABS systems exist if stock braking systems lacked the braking torque to even lock the wheels in the first place?


If I were you, I would upgrade to the Nismo calipers and discs as their huge and fairly cheap compare to BBK's. Check that the part number for the master cylinder is the same between sport and nismo (it is the same for performance and nismo) and you're golden.

He was talking about track applications.
Bigger brakes on the same platform as me out brake me. 6 pot vs my stock 4 pot. Friend can out brake me by almost 70 feet. That is not heat management. That is more caliper grabbing more rotor.
Sure modern cars on the street can all engage ABS

But on the track with track tires you can slow a car down faster with bigger brakes because the tires grip and the ABS is not activated.

 

[FSUZ33]

Rabbit Hole Alert!

No doubt that bigger brakes work better in high temp successive braking events (eg. track, autocross). However...
There are two schools of thought on bigger brakes, considering all other variables are consistent.
- Larger brakes do NOT perform better than smaller brakes in standard temp braking events.
- Larger brakes DO perform better than smaller brakes in standard temp braking events.

Taking ABS out of the equation, this is an interesting topic imho. I've always felt I got a better bite daily driving with bigger brakes. But is that the old 'butt dyno trickery'? Is it that I've typically run larger/wider/stickier tires when running larger brakes? Is it because typically with larger brakes they're a little grabbier under medium pedal pressure therefore seem 'better'?

I feel like with larger brakes you get a larger bite point, if that makes sense. With smaller brakes you can slam on them and they will lock the tires, but I envision it sort of like "snap oversteer" under throttle in a racecar. The smaller the brakes the quicker you go from the car braking aggressively (wheels turning) to locked up. And a larger brake widens that "bite point" out a bit allowing you to modulate a little more before it locks. No research, and no clue if this contains any shred of truth, just my opinion based on (admittedly) not a ton of experience.

 

[5thZ]

Some interesting thoughts. I did some research on brake kits that would fit my current 18" track wheels and came across the Alcon and Paragon options. I also compared the clamping torque between the Akebono, Nismo Akebono, and Paragon. Feel free to review the images for interesting thoughts on the matter.

In summary, there is no near real impact or need for me to upgrade the Akebono calipers to the Paragon calipers aside from potential heat management within the calipers themselves, which I plan to help mitigate if I chose either option with Paragon 2-piece vented rotors (which I already have multiple sets).

There is also a company that was researching brake ducting kits for non-nismo Z's. I reached out a couple months ago and they paused it, but didn't abandon it.

 

[FSUZ33]

Seibon brake cooling ducts
I don't know anything about these. May just be the ducts and you supply hose, hardware, etc... Only thing that stands out is these appear to fit under the vehicle in front of the wheels (sandwich to the undertray?) and I feel like they could easily get ripped off in certain street situations or off-track excursions.

 

[5thZ]

Seibon brake cooling ducts
I don't know anything about these. May just be the ducts and you supply hose, hardware, etc... Only thing that stands out is these appear to fit under the vehicle in front of the wheels (sandwich to the undertray?) and I feel like they could easily get ripped off in certain street situations or off-track excursions.

I've looked into this before and IIRC we'd need the seibon front lip for these to mount into. Pretty expensive total solution

 

[FSUZ33]

I think you were talking about Togue Factory, and they were undermount inset NACA ducts.

Didn't know about the lip thing on the Seibon. If I wanted to make it happen today I would get off-the-shelf NACA ducts, hose, etc. and design my own system before doing the Seibons. Seibon seems like a money-dump and huge mechanical hassle. Not that designing one from scratch would be simple, but if you're not trying to make it look show car perfect... You can get good quality NACA ducts cheap. Hose, is where you'd spend the money, if you want the silicone hi-temp yadda yadda yadda stuff.

 

[Drago86]

He was talking about track applications.
Bigger brakes on the same platform as me out brake me. 6 pot vs my stock 4 pot. Friend can out brake me by almost 70 feet. That is not heat management. That is more caliper grabbing more rotor.
Sure modern cars on the street can all engage ABS

But on the track with track tires you can slow a car down faster with bigger brakes because the tires grip and the ABS is not activated.

Try adjusting the nut between the steering wheel and the seat. Your friend is just pushing the pedal harder and activating his ABS. Yes, even cars on race tires can lock up the wheels on stock brakes. I've been on track in non-ABS cars with sticky ass rubber and believe me being able to lock up is not the problem, not locking them up is.


Just look at the chart posted above, 4000(!) ft'lbs of braking torque per wheel! That is greater than 1 G deceleration PER WHEEL braking at only 1000 psi (lines are rated to 3000), so unless you have F1 quality aero and are braking at 4+ G's, I don't believe you.

Also notice the base model has more brake toque than the bigger braked performance trim?

Edit: I should probably note that your friend could also have better tires, be running less front camber, be managing his tire temperatures better or any multitude of other reasons to explain the difference in braking distance. I can ASSURE you though that available braking torque pre-fade is not one of them (unless of course you actually are an F1 driver and brake at 6+g's due to aero).

 

[rocksandblues]

Try adjusting the nut between the steering wheel and the seat. Your friend is just pushing the pedal harder and activating his ABS. Yes, even cars on race tires can lock up the wheels on stock brakes. I've been on track in non-ABS cars with sticky ass rubber and believe me being able to lock up is not the problem, not locking them up is.


Just look at the chart posted above, 4000(!) ft'lbs of braking torque per wheel! That is greater than 1 G deceleration PER WHEEL braking at only 1000 psi (lines are rated to 3000), so unless you have F1 quality aero and are braking at 4+ G's, I don't believe you.

Also notice the base model has more brake toque than the bigger braked performance trim?

Edit: I should probably note that your friend could also have better tires, be running less front camber, be managing his tire temperatures better or any multitude of other reasons to explain the difference in braking distance. I can ASSURE you though that available braking torque pre-fade is not one of them (unless of course you actually are an F1 driver and brake at 6+g's due to aero).

No

while the nut between the seat and wheel can ALWAYS be better. Bigger brakes are a lot more than just heat. They stop the car faster. There is a reason racers upgrade from 4- 6 pot brake sets- and it is not heat.

he and i have the same car, same power, same aero, equal suspension upgrades, run equivalent 200tw tires. It is the brakes

both of us are advanced, instruct, do well in TT and events. Both do 40+ track days a year. We know when we are in abs

Pick any platform and look at the brake upgrades that the racers do. Again, it is not for heat