Looking for experienced input on purchase of new Z (Performance v NISMO)

[David Montgomery]

If that's the best place being recommended for all those handling items, then yes, absolutely. Is it?

I figured it's a good place to start. They do really good work, and they know these cars better than anyone i have seen. If what they offer is too expensive or doesn't work for you in some way, you can use the info they provide and do your own research on every aftermarket part they suggest.

 

[Xylander]

Do you happen to know if OEM Performance brake performance can be improved much with simple pad swaps? Or are we talking more extensive upgrades, like calipers, rotors, lines, etc. to achieve significant improvement?

The problem is caused by a combination of the smaller rotors, different pads and the overheating of the brakes. The Nismo is designed to address the lack of brake pedal feel in the Performance. It goes a bit deeper than a rotor and pad upgrade as it has added ducting for better cooling and some kind of tune in the brake controller.

But, to address the issues with the Performance for street use, you can go a long way just by upgrading to higher temp performance pads (which will make a ton more dust). Changing up to Nismo or similar rotors will help as well. It's just that without the added cooling and that configuration in the brake controller, the pedal feel is still going to be squishy and it will still bake the brakes if pushed hard for too long. With a pad upgrade, you'll get some more time, but it'll just prolong the inevitable if you ever track it.

 

[METROdigital]

Nismo=well baked with all ingredients
Performance=well baked with room for spicer ingredients.

I went Performance and have made most of the mods recommended above.

I highly recommend a day of high performance driving in a good class. It will really give you an idea of ANY car and how it responds to real world situations.

Daniel

 

[VR30Z6spd]

didnt go through the whole thread, glad your ok. car doesnt look super damanged

i would buy it back and modify the hell out of it

 

[HWill]

This is pretty much the sentiment I'm against. That's because this leads to someone not adding the larger brakes, or leaving off the expensive additional coolers. Then, you have the simple fact that changing out the suspension components is just about more expensive than an engine swap. A few sentences makes it sound so cheap and easy... when you're looking at what, 30+ hours of labor to do the entire upgrade if you don't cut corners and leave off some of the coolers?

But, most everyone cuts those corners. Put some parts on, add the STILLEN stickers to the car, done. People tend to skip upgrades that don't make the car go faster or stop harder... and saving a few thousand on needless coolers that "just add weight" (heard that here recently) is just fine and dandy...

Sorry, don't agree.

The reason I brought up the Mustang vs GT500 issue is that you see this over there as par for the course. 5.0 owner wants GT500 power for GT prices. Their builds typically fall short... most often, FAR short. The common thing you hear over there is, "Whipple, E85, injectors, pump, and a tune = GT500 killer." Only, it doesn't have the ability in the rear to put the power down in any way shape or form. The axles can't handle the power and just about all of them end up with split CV boots. The driveshaft can't handle the torque. The stock clutch can't handle it either. So, they start with around $15,000 in power mods, only to end up with a car that's laid up from constantly breaking drivetrain components until they pony up the added 10-15 grand in needed upgrades. Now, that car costs more than the GT500 and it still doesn't make GT500 power and can only drive 100mi on a full tank of E85.

I see this Performance to Nismo upgrade talk in the exact same light. I've never seen it successfully done that's both an equal performer at similar cost. That's simply because the OEM is sourcing parts below wholesale. An owner is sourcing parts at full retail. You'll never get to the Nismo spec on the same budget unless you cut corners... and then you're just not at the same point.

Alot in this post makes no sense. I have had a lot of Mustangs and you can't compare a GT to a GT500. You definitely can't say a Performance Z and Nismo Z is like comparing a GT and GT500..LOL

If you can't build a GT to be better than a GT500 then you don't know much about modding.

Depending on the type of racing you don't need new axles unless you are drag racing with drag radials/slicks. Drive shaft is just fine. Split CV boots..LOL You don't need anything near what you claim to make a faster and better GT.

Just because you haven't seen a performance Z built better than a stock Nismo for the difference in price doesn't mean it can't be done. It is not hard and NO you don't have to cut corners.

The Nismo is a good car. I wouldn't go as far to say it is a track monster or even considerably better than the performance for the price.

With the discounts they offered on the 25's you definitely could build a better Z using the Sport or Performance than the Nismo.

 

[HuskeRZ34]

Alot in this post makes no sense. I have had a lot of Mustangs and you can't compare a GT to a GT500. You definitely can't say a Performance Z and Nismo Z is like comparing a GT and GT500..LOL

If you can't build a GT to be better than a GT500 then you don't know much about modding.

Depending on the type of racing you don't need new axles unless you are drag racing with drag radials/slicks. Drive shaft is just fine. Split CV boots..LOL You don't need anything near what you claim to make a faster and better GT.

Just because you haven't seen a performance Z built better than a stock Nismo for the difference in price doesn't mean it can't be done. It is not hard and NO you don't have to cut corners.

The Nismo is a good car. I wouldn't go as far to say it is a track monster or even considerably better than the performance for the price.

With the discounts they offered on the 25's you definitely could build a better Z using the Sport or Performance than the Nismo.

Totally agree! From the track comparisons I’ve seen with the NISMO vs Supra vs M2, etc…. The NISMO is definitely not a world beater and usually last by a couple of seconds. Now you put a conservative tune and slightly wider and grippier tires on the NISMO and boom it’s probably beating those by a couple of seconds instead!

Now with the Performance I think it’s coil-overs, stabilizer bars, wider and grippier tires, some frame braces, a few choice bushings for better feedback, Z1 Hotbox to get basically the same over boost as the NISMO and pad and rotors away from being every bit as good if not better as the NISMO on a hot lap or two. So all in before labor or your time $4-5k. Now where it will still fall short to the NISMO is mainly in track endurance, seats (subjective), steering feel and looks (also subjective). To fix these short falls are engine and brake cooling (fixable but pricey, however, you can easily get much better than NISMO here), seats (easily fixed for $2000 to $4500 for quality aftermarket to used NISMOs), Z1 solid steering bushing (cheap and may give better feel than NISMO but probably without the extra steering heft, however, have heard are a huge PITA!) and lastly exterior looks (totally subjective and sky’s the limit here).

So in conclusion to get a Z Performance on equal footing with a NISMO performance-wise for a solid 5 to 10 minutes on track is $4-7k (depending on parts quality and labor). To have it equal or better in every way objectively with its performance for long track sessions is another $5-$10k on top of that. For the subjective stuff another $2400 to infinity! lol. So if you can do all or some of the installs yourself and you don’t care about having those Recaro seats and NISMO logos all over and/or want a stick (matters until next year!) the Performance is the better and probably cheaper option. If your good with or prefer the auto and can’t wrench much and want the most capable Z that will need the least amount of mods to get it there the NISMO then becomes the value purchase!

This long explanation still leaves the final and most important question for most of us still, how good do you want to make it and do you care about that warranty?! Once you want that Performance to be equal or better in every way you’re starting to jeopardize that factory warranty on a lot of expensive stuff!

 

[Mr. Mac]

Z1 makes upgraded rotors, pads and brake lines to upgrade them. This YouTuber just posted a video on it about a month ago. Seems like a good way to go…

Thanks for that recommendation and link. Good stuff. The same YT guy coincidentally just posted this other video couple days ago that addresses much of what I was wanting to learn more about on the handling side of things for Performance model. >>>>

 

[Xylander]

Alot in this post makes no sense. I have had a lot of Mustangs and you can't compare a GT to a GT500. You definitely can't say a Performance Z and Nismo Z is like comparing a GT and GT500..LOL

If you can't build a GT to be better than a GT500 then you don't know much about modding.

Depending on the type of racing you don't need new axles unless you are drag racing with drag radials/slicks. Drive shaft is just fine. Split CV boots..LOL You don't need anything near what you claim to make a faster and better GT.

What I said was you can't build a GT to the GT500 spec without eclipsing the cost of said GT500. Take this car for example. This is my 1,300 whp 2015 S550 GT. It was built in a few stages. Started out with a D1X ProCharger and 800whp. That upgrade pushed the car on its stock internals with no other real handling mods. Faster than a GT500 in a straight line? Yes. In twisties? Absolutely not. Cost was $16,000 over the base price of the GT. So, $48,000 + $16,000 = $64,000. The GT500 in 2014 was a $55,000 car and only has around 580whp. GT500 has better suspension, brakes.

Now, in the photo below, this is at the 1,000whp upgrade. It could vary between 800-1,000whp with a tune and head unit swap. It mostly ran at the 800whp level, but it also has a full competition suspension, upgraded slotted rotors, and functional side scoops for ducting air to the rear brakes. The list of mods on this car's suspension would take up an entire page to list out.

As it sits, yes, it's far better than a GT500... but the total investment to build this car is approaching $200,000. Realistically, if it were built only for 800whp with a competition suspension, total cost would be around $130,000.... well more than double the price of a GT500.

It's probably not the best comparison, as the goal wasn't to build a GT500 on a budget. The MSRP of the 2015 GT PP and the 2014 GT500 is only a difference of $8,000. So, for this to have ever worked, I could only spend $8,000... and the ProCharger kit on that car to get it to a base of 700whp was a $7,700 kit before installation. So, yeah... you can't even get the ProCharger installed before you eclipse the cost.

And that's my point with the Nismo. Yes, you can build a Sport to beat a Nismo... you just won't do it for less than the Nismo cost you. This is why I chose the Nismo to use as a foundation. Refining something like the Nismo allows you to build up and out, rather than start in a hole.

 

[chadhunley]

I'm not that knowledgeable about mustangs, but that's on fine looking machine you have there. Impressive but for sure!

 

[HWill]

What I said was you can't build a GT to the GT500 spec without eclipsing the cost of said GT500. Take this car for example. This is my 1,300 whp 2015 S550 GT. It was built in a few stages. Started out with a D1X ProCharger and 800whp. That upgrade pushed the car on its stock internals with no other real handling mods. Faster than a GT500 in a straight line? Yes. In twisties? Absolutely not. Cost was $16,000 over the base price of the GT. So, $48,000 + $16,000 = $64,000. The GT500 in 2014 was a $55,000 car and only has around 580whp. GT500 has better suspension, brakes.

Now, in the photo below, this is at the 1,000whp upgrade. It could vary between 800-1,000whp with a tune and head unit swap. It mostly ran at the 800whp level, but it also has a full competition suspension, upgraded slotted rotors, and functional side scoops for ducting air to the rear brakes. The list of mods on this car's suspension would take up an entire page to list out.

As it sits, yes, it's far better than a GT500... but the total investment to build this car is approaching $200,000. Realistically, if it were built only for 800whp with a competition suspension, total cost would be around $130,000.... well more than double the price of a GT500.

It's probably not the best comparison, as the goal wasn't to build a GT500 on a budget. The MSRP of the 2015 GT PP and the 2014 GT500 is only a difference of $8,000. So, for this to have ever worked, I could only spend $8,000... and the ProCharger kit on that car to get it to a base of 700whp was a $7,700 kit before installation. So, yeah... you can't even get the ProCharger installed before you eclipse the cost.

And that's my point with the Nismo. Yes, you can build a Sport to beat a Nismo... you just won't do it for less than the Nismo cost you. This is why I chose the Nismo to use as a foundation. Refining something like the Nismo allows you to build up and out, rather than start in a hole.

Your numbers are wrong! Base 2015 GT $32K and 2014 Base GT500 $55K, a difference of $13K.
When you are pulling numbers out of the air it might make sense to you.

Again IF you know how to mod you absolutely could do it, just because you couldn't doesn't mean anything. And your "example" of a car is not a very good comparison as you even stated.

I have said this over and over there is no need to justify your Nismo. It is a great car but it shares a lot with the Sport and Performance with a good price gap to have many build better. It doesn't have any standout parts like the GT500.

 

[Xylander]

Your numbers are wrong! Base 2015 GT $32K and 2014 Base GT500 $55K, a difference of $13K.
When you are pulling numbers out of the air it might make sense to you.

Again IF you know how to mod you absolutely could do it, just because you couldn't doesn't mean anything. And your "example" of a car is not a very good comparison as you even stated.

I have said this over and over there is no need to justify your Nismo. It is a great car but it shares a lot with the Sport and Performance with a good price gap to have many build better. It doesn't have any standout parts like the GT500.

My 2015 Mustang GT PP (that I quoted above) was a $48,000 car. I owned a 46k sq.ft. performance and chassis fab shop and we built several hundred Mustangs between 2012 and 2020. I'll say it again... many like you claim it to be so, but you cannot build a sub trim car to the next level for a cheaper price. Period. OEMs source below wholesale. You source at retail. The only way you get that same performance for less is by lying to yourself.

Now, back on that base GT nonsense. The reason why we wouldn't source GT basics was because they didn't come with a limited slip diff. The PP cars had the Torsen rear end that could accept 600, 800 hp without any issues. The clutched unit in the base GT can't handle 500hp before it starts slipping and one-wheel peeling you into a ditch. So, if we started with that GT basic, the build cost would have been much higher, as the running gear and rear suspension can't handle the mods. The base GT PP's suspension and rear end/axles can handle 700whp bone stock, and 1,000+ whp with a half shaft swap and a K-member.

So yes, you can build a car that will launch in an S pattern if you build it off said base GT (and many people do... and they're terrible). That's because people cut corners on budget builds. They build the motor, and usually nothing else. Oh, yay, I've got GT500 power... and you can't go 0-60 faster than most base GTs because all that power evaporates in one wheel spin and wheel hop. Lebanon Ford was famous there for a bit by offering 675hp 5.0s for $49,000. They were literally putting a blower on a stock GT basic with 245 tires and said basic rear diff. They were total trash piles.

Trust me, and we researched this extensively, but the cost to get an S550 GT basic to 700whp vs. a GT PP car is close to $15,000 extra. You save, on average, 6-7k dollars by starting with the more expensive PP car because it has said below wholesale performance parts from the factory. As a shop owner, I could source wholesale on most things... and even then it wasn't price competitive.

It's not that I can or can't mod cars... I've been building pro SCCA cars for 30 years. I just don't build cars that don't make sense. In this case, it makes no business sense to build a performance Z to a Nismo spec because you destroy the value of the car to get there, lose the warranty, and you'll pay more than the difference between the Nismo and the Performance to do it. Hence why I said it's like starting a build in a hole... and when you dig your way out, you're left with something that's less than what you started with (no warranty).

This is especially true today with how deeply discounted many of the Nismos are. I recently bought a 2nd Nismo Z to use as my new daily. The first one sat on the dealership lot for 440 days and I got it for $61,000 with an MSRP of $72,000. This one that I just bought last weekend sat on a dealer lot in Idaho for 461 days. Same color as my first one, same options, same MSRP. I got this one for $59,800. It had 540 miles on it from being test driven and hauled around to sales events and so forth since 2024. I bought it sight unseen via their internet sales manager and had it shipped to FL via UShip.com for $1,100 in an enclosed trailer.

So, again, if someone is wanting to do track work with their Z, it pays to get a 2024/2025 Nismo because they're discounted over 10k off their MSRP. Keep in mind that I got that Nismo for only $7k more than the Performance they had sitting next to it.

You aren't building a performance anywhere near a Nismo for that kind of margin.

 

[Xylander]

I'm not that knowledgeable about mustangs, but that's on fine looking machine you have there. Impressive but for sure!

Thanks, it was a great car. I put over 70k miles on it over 4 years. Sold it to a racing team that made it into an SCCA Unlim 2 car.

 

[OptionZero]

curious how a regular Z with just coils and suspension arms to allow for an real alignment would do vs an unmodfiied nismo (Same tires) around a track

Suspect the regular Z would be faster until the brakes overheated

 

[HWill]

My 2015 Mustang GT PP (that I quoted above) was a $48,000 car. I owned a 46k sq.ft. performance and chassis fab shop and we built several hundred Mustangs between 2012 and 2020. I'll say it again... many like you claim it to be so, but you cannot build a sub trim car to the next level for a cheaper price. Period. OEMs source below wholesale. You source at retail. The only way you get that same performance for less is by lying to yourself.

Now, back on that base GT nonsense. The reason why we wouldn't source GT basics was because they didn't come with a limited slip diff. The PP cars had the Torsen rear end that could accept 600, 800 hp without any issues. The clutched unit in the base GT can't handle 500hp before it starts slipping and one-wheel peeling you into a ditch. So, if we started with that GT basic, the build cost would have been much higher, as the running gear and rear suspension can't handle the mods. The base GT PP's suspension and rear end/axles can handle 700whp bone stock, and 1,000+ whp with a half shaft swap and a K-member.

So yes, you can build a car that will launch in an S pattern if you build it off said base GT (and many people do... and they're terrible). That's because people cut corners on budget builds. They build the motor, and usually nothing else. Oh, yay, I've got GT500 power... and you can't go 0-60 faster than most base GTs because all that power evaporates in one wheel spin and wheel hop. Lebanon Ford was famous there for a bit by offering 675hp 5.0s for $49,000. They were literally putting a blower on a stock GT basic with 245 tires and said basic rear diff. They were total trash piles.

Trust me, and we researched this extensively, but the cost to get an S550 GT basic to 700whp vs. a GT PP car is close to $15,000 extra. You save, on average, 6-7k dollars by starting with the more expensive PP car because it has said below wholesale performance parts from the factory. As a shop owner, I could source wholesale on most things... and even then it wasn't price competitive.

It's not that I can or can't mod cars... I've been building pro SCCA cars for 30 years. I just don't build cars that don't make sense. In this case, it makes no business sense to build a performance Z to a Nismo spec because you destroy the value of the car to get there, lose the warranty, and you'll pay more than the difference between the Nismo and the Performance to do it. Hence why I said it's like starting a build in a hole... and when you dig your way out, you're left with something that's less than what you started with (no warranty).

This is especially true today with how deeply discounted many of the Nismos are. I recently bought a 2nd Nismo Z to use as my new daily. The first one sat on the dealership lot for 440 days and I got it for $61,000 with an MSRP of $72,000. This one that I just bought last weekend sat on a dealer lot in Idaho for 461 days. Same color as my first one, same options, same MSRP. I got this one for $59,800. It had 540 miles on it from being test driven and hauled around to sales events and so forth since 2024. I bought it sight unseen via their internet sales manager and had it shipped to FL via UShip.com for $1,100 in an enclosed trailer.

So, again, if someone is wanting to do track work with their Z, it pays to get a 2024/2025 Nismo because they're discounted over 10k off their MSRP. Keep in mind that I got that Nismo for only $7k more than the Performance they had sitting next to it.

You aren't building a performance anywhere near a Nismo for that kind of margin.

Your resume is not impressive especially when you keep putting out bad information and very bad reasoning. But since you like to throw it up every now and then I think you just like to read/hear it.

As I have said before if you are going to do a comparison on Dollar to HP builds you have to use All models and at MSRP prices. Once you start throwing in heavily discounted prices it makes no sense.

All mustangs in 2015 came with a LSD, yes a PP came with a Torsen. And you could install a Torsen for under $1000. Depending on what type of racing decide if you stayed with the reg LSD or upgraded to the Torsen.

The Axles were all the same and as stated "again" were perfectly fine unless you are drag racing with drag radials or slicks.

Your wholesale and retail agreement is just weird and not one I would expect someone that "owned" a shop to say. You do know that vehicles, especially like the Nismo is made for the Masses. Even if it has "OK" parts there are almost always better aftermarket parts. It does not come from the factory with the best of the best.

And if you can get parts at wholesale or cost and can't build a better car then you absolutely don't know anything about modding.

Again your whole post makes no sense and you are really trying to justify your purchase!

 

[Xylander]

I'm going to ignore you now, because you don't have a clue about the S550 Mustang, and you certainly don't know the first thing about running a successful SCCA/NHRA professional performance shop for over 20 years.

So, we're at an impasse. Some keyboard warrior who doesn't know the difference between a Torsen and a spring loaded clutched diff is going to lecture me about what I do or don't know and how I don't know how to order parts?

I don't need to justify my purchases. I build race cars for track use. That's literally all I do. It's why I own 2 2024 Nismo Zs. One is a track car being built for SCCA Unlim 1 spec racing, the other is going to be a rolling test mule. I don't need a Sport or a Performance because I am building race cars. I don't need the street stuff, and most of the Nismo kit will be replaced too. It's just economically more in my favor to reuse what I can from the Nismo and build up and out from there.

As to the whole wholesale/retail thing. Let me enlighten you. Back to the S550 Mustang. Retail on the ProCharger stage 2 HO kit on my S550 ranges from between $8,000-$9,000. As a ProCharger authorized dealer and installer, my price direct on the kit is $6,280. That's wholesale price per part. When we were building these in volume (7-10 per week), I was pricing below wholesale with bulk order purchases that brought the per unit price down to the equivalent of $5,300 (specifically, in 2018 the units were around $7,300 retail and I was buying them at around $4,000 a piece). We had similar contracts with Mahle for pistons/rods, Ford Racing for axles, DSS for driveshafts, and so on. Everything was purchased at or below wholesale to maximize shop profit and reduce customer cost. In 2018, for example, provided the customer supplied the donor PP GT, we would deliver them an 800whp car for about $18,000 and included the ProCharger HO stage II kit, pistons/rods, fuel pumps, driveshaft, axles, clutch, K-member and sway bar upgrades. We also had a lesser 700whp package that was literally just the ProCharger kit and a clutch. That kit was $11,000 and could be installed in under 4 hours total time from start to dyno tune. We sold over 200 of the 800whp cars, and close to 400 700whp builds in 2017-2019.

Now, the reason why YOU can't get prices like this is because you're not a business owner that has supplier contracts and scalable pricing based on volume. So, if you try to replicate what we did, your parts cost will be considerably higher. You also don't have to store 50 ProCharger kits, 100 fuel pumps, 50 sets of pistons, and so on in your warehouse. This was a proper racing performance shop... not some general mechanic garage that takes people in off the street in onesies and twosies. Our wait list for builds exceeded 18 months and we planned the builds out the same way an OEM manufacturer does JIT logistics. Parts were ordered and confirmed 60 days before the build was scheduled so that on build day, everything for the build was loaded onto a pallet and readied for install. And, as I said, we were building 7-10 of these per week, every week for almost 4 years straight. This was in addition to our work with McLaren, Porsche, and Audi competition teams.

So, if you think you can build cars cheaper and better than we did... by all means. You should go for it because we did very, very well. But, I'm of the mind that you can't even build 1 unless you give the labor and shipping costs away for free. Me, I employed 48 people during those years and owned 2 racing teams driving 2x C7Rs and 2x GT350Rs.

So please, stop telling me I'm a moron and I don't know anything. Go build a car and show me you can do better... then do it 300 more times on a timed schedule and you'll have my attention. I'll go ahead and ignore you now, and check back in a year to see how it's going.