Instrument Tested & Comparison: 2023 Nissan Z Performance vs. 2022 GR Supra 3.0 Premium Review

[trackratZ]

Autocross and track tires have very different compounds and heat cycles, can't compare them, period! Autox tires won't last on track sessions, not made for that, has no chance, while track tires will take longer to heat up on the parking lot stuff. Taking that into account, some compromise tires do exist, I've used Hankook R-S3, R-S4, Nitto NT-01 for dual street and track, they last long and still grippy. Gotta compare apples to apples, and when you get into R-comps, TW under 200, that's a whole new ballgame.

 

[romanLegion]

Faster at changing gears, yes, obviously, (although until more recently they also had the tendency to pick the "wrong" gear).

BUT almost everyone who is a real car enthusiast or driving expert will tell you the manual car is more "fun" and a better "driving experience". Most of the Z reviewers tell you to get the manual, most of the Supra reviewers tell you to get the manual (now that it exists), ...

The reality is that sheer speed for the sake of it is an utterly pointless exercise, especially on public roads. What you really want is the better driving experience ... and that usually means a manual car, and a direct driver-to-mechanical-bits link with as few electronic interfering gimmicks as possible.

If all you want is sheer speed, you're better off getting a drag racer to use down at the local sprint strip.

Is it more of an experience? I agree, a manual does involve greater driver input.

Is it more fun? Not always. This will always come down to the dynamics of the
car, which is more than just a transmission. A 3rd gen Eclipse is not more fun than a Ferrari 458.

And I'm failing to see why we're discounting autoXers, drag racers, and track people as not real car enthusiasts because a traditional manual conflicts with their goals. They want the fastest lap time, 1/4 mile, 0-60, and set up cars to achieve that. They're not lesser car enthusiasts because their goal is different.

And lastly, I had the luxury of riding with my friend who has a manual GT4 during my first track day when he was showing me the ropes, and he also did a few laps in my car. He could leave his GT4 in 4th for 95% of the track, but was much more actively between 4th and 5th on my car, and was surprised how much he needed to think about it (aka how much more he needed to cognitively engage). The gear ratios and car's power band matter as well.

We're past the day of slushboxes and the cut and dry answer of manual > automatic.

No one that's a legitimate enthusiast cares that autos and DCTs are faster. And the whole point of F1 and WRC is to shave tenths of seconds - again, not really pertinent, even to those of us tracking our cars. The point is to have an engaging driving experience. Aside from the Porsche PDK, you're not going to get that with any auto or DCT on the market.

But we're straying from the point - which is that MKV Supra owners are not enthusiasts on the same level as some of us here, that care about a legitimate JDM sports car, regardless of how slow it is.



It's not the same thing, like at all. Not even a little bit the same. More power to you if you don't care it's not real JDM. That wasn't a compromise I was willing to make (not the mention I feel the MKV is butt ugly).

If, say, in an alternate universe, Nissan had partnered with Alfa Romeo for an even better Z that what we have now, albeit on an Alfa chassis and powertrain, I would be saying the same thing.

I dunno man, professional drivers are more hardcore enthusiasts than any of us. I highly doubt you're subjecting yourself to several Gs for hours on end for your livelihood. And I've yet to meet a single person regularly does track days who isn't looking to improve lap times.

As for your comment about the PDK, the VW Golf DSG, GTR DCT, and M2 DCT I used all felt engaging, just not as crisp as the 911 GT3 PDK I tried out.

And cry all you want about "true JDM", "heritage", and "culture". The Supra joins a bunch of great cars that came about due to collaborations: MB 500 E, Audi RS2 Avant, SLR McLaren, McLaren F1, BMW M1, Vauxhall Lotus Carlton, and more.

 

[TiresAlwaysFlat]

Is it more of an experience? I agree, a manual does involve greater driver input.

Is it more fun? Not always. This will always come down to the dynamics of the car, which is more than just a transmission. A 3rd gen Eclipse is not more fun than a Ferrari 458.

Can't compare a 3rd gen Eclipse to a Ferrari 458.. auto or manual.. its not even the same class.

I dunno man, professional drivers are more hardcore enthusiasts than any of us. I highly doubt you're subjecting yourself to several Gs for hours on end for your livelihood. And I've yet to meet a single person regularly does track days who isn't looking to improve lap times.

No.. professional drivers are not more of an enthusiasts than your average DIY guy that does spirited/occasional track days. More talented.. yes but not more of an enthusiast


Anyways, my take on it.. I'm not a professional driver nor am I out there to set lap records at numerous tracks. Therefore I will always prefer the more engaging experience of a manual transmission any day of the week.. no matter how much it kills my left leg sitting in traffic.

 

[GRMan]

I am both a Nissan and a Toyota sports car fan...would really like to see the Z punches above its weight and I am also glad the Supra is finally coming out with a 6MT which if I was running the GR Supra program, would have included it from the very beginning

Any how my post is about the false propaganda that the S007A is shit and is worst than the MPSS. I have used both tyres extensively and the S007A out grip the MPSS in the dry. Only in deep standing water scenario that the MPSS has a slight advantage over the S007A

Included is a link to a tyres test ran by Motor magazine and the S007A out brakes the PS4S and from my personal experience, the S007A has more longitudinal grip than the PSS and the PS4S. Regarding lateral G, I think they are pretty much similar. Hence if the Z has more difficulty in gaining traction from a stop start, it would not be because of the tyres (as Jason Cammisa unscientifically alluded to in his video).

My take would be

1. The heavily front bias weight distribution of the Z (56.4% Z vs 51.7% Supra) will not have as much traction off the line as the Supra

2. The Z is quite a bit heavier

3. The traction control system on the Z is not as optimised as the one on the Supra

The biggest concern for me was not about those straight line 0-60 & quarter mile run. It's that the lateral G being way down (0.93 vs 1.00) on the Z. I was very surprised because we are talking about the difference between an Extreme Summer tyre vs an Ultra High Performance (i.e. Adan A052 vs PS4S). Given we have established previously the S007A is actually quite a capable performance street tyre. I can only suspect it is due to human error in the measurements taking because I just cannot see how the suspension on the Z can perform that badly given the Z were running quite brilliantly in the Fuji 24h Endurance race last weekend.

All in all, I think people should wait till more test comparisons to come out before jumping to conclusion. Included is a link on the tyres test performed in 2019.

What is Australia's best new performance tyre? MOTOR Magazine Tyre Test 2019 (whichcar.com.au)

 

[bboypuertoroc]

I'm done after this post. My statement still stands that I (may just be person preference) like the p Zeros better for an all around street tire. I stick to 200tw tires for the track (rt660s this time around) and for that reason, have a track wheel/tire setup and a street setup. Can't have it all in one tire.

I can dig it. I definitely prefer the 200tw tires on track (had a ton of luck with Star Spec IIs and RT615s).

Autocross and track tires have very different compounds and heat cycles, can't compare them, period! Autox tires won't last on track sessions, not made for that, has no chance, while track tires will take longer to heat up on the parking lot stuff. Taking that into account, some compromise tires do exist, I've used Hankook R-S3, R-S4, Nitto NT-01 for dual street and track, they last long and still grippy. Gotta compare apples to apples, and when you get into R-comps, TW under 200, that's a whole new ballgame.

I remember the first time I ran R comps... holy shit what a difference. I don't think I ever found the limits of those tires.

 

[because_murica]

I dunno man, professional drivers are more hardcore enthusiasts than any of us. I highly doubt you're subjecting yourself to several Gs for hours on end for your livelihood. And I've yet to meet a single person regularly does track days who isn't looking to improve lap times.

As for your comment about the PDK, the VW Golf DSG, GTR DCT, and M2 DCT I used all felt engaging, just not as crisp as the 911 GT3 PDK I tried out.

And cry all you want about "true JDM", "heritage", and "culture". The Supra joins a bunch of great cars that came about due to collaborations: MB 500 E, Audi RS2 Avant, SLR McLaren, McLaren F1, BMW M1, Vauxhall Lotus Carlton, and more.

Professional drivers are way more talented than most enthusiasts, but most professional drivers likely don't even know that much about the car they're driving. They're quite a ways away from being enthusiasts. They get paid to set the quickest lap times they can - that's it.

There's a significant difference between an SLR Mclaren for example and the Supra - both Mercedes and McLaren each had a hand in actually developing parts for the car. It was a legitimate marriage of engine and chassis from different companies. Thr Supra is not - at all. Moreover, with the cars you mentioned above, the joint ventures between two companies resulted in a new project that wasn't trying to pander to fans of an existing nameplate with history.

Also skirting my point by diverting and claiming the Supra essentially "is what it is", but who cares as it joins a list of other great collaboration projects is a cop out. As noted above, the MKV takes advantage of a nameplate it had no business using, irrespective of how good its performance can be. Not to mention that in the long run I don't see the Supra being held in the same regard and deeply respected as the cars you mentioned (Doug Demuro is very wrong on this one).

So in sum, NO, just because the pros use DCTs, that sure as shit doesn't mean it's the enthusiast's choice. And NO, just because high end exotics have switched to DCT/auto only does not mean enthusiasts should bow down to that crap - aside from Porsche and McLaren, the rest of the exotic brands have lost their roots, and are instead focusing on selling to dirtbags who only buy those cars as status items.

And NO, the Supra does not join the list of other great collaboration projects. It performs well, yes, but does not belong on your list. It's a bastard child with a German surname and Austrian middle initial

 

[Drseckzytime]

I want to see lap times on a real track, not this straight line stuff people like to zero in on. The Supra manual will likely be closer in line to the manual Z, and the Auto Z closer to Supra auto. The real track is where we will see the true difference in how good of a car each compare. And I'm thinking the Supra is going to walk the Z, especially since BMW err Toyota recalibrated the dynamics and suspension. Lighter, newer chassis, with a superior weight balance, and I'm not expecting some "1LE" magic in a heavier car from Nissan here. Btw, manual transmission all day every day in enthusiast cars, period. You can a special feel and connection you cannot get in an automatic.

Those tires are junk, but Nissan couldn't be bothered to fix this problem like how you pay for a "sport tuned muffler" in a trim package and it's quieter than the automatic... What are you paying for? The Z's brakes suck, no surprise here again. This is why that "performance" trim package is a damn joke, and not worth the money. And $1300-1700 for premium paint colors? Get bent.

The value isn't there in the Z and why I moved on. You want to see a real difference and value in trims/packages? Compare the $10,000 performance trim to the $7,000 1LE package SS. Then maybe you'll see why and how Nissan is ripping people off, and the Z doesn't have that value.

Michelin still makes the best street non-R compound tires. Continental has stepped up though.

 

[Orveezy]

The Z still feels less sporty than the Supra regardless of the transmission differences.

Fact is the Z is just way too heavy. Take a look at C&D's braking metrics; the Supra beats the Z by a bus length from 100-0. If you translate that to the track that means the Supra can brake later into the turns instead of early. The tires are also overwhelmed of the weight too. Damn thing needs a diet or a better tire and suspension setup.

I'm sure the Nismo Z will be much better but it'll certainly cost $$more$$. At that point why not just buy a used M2 or Cayman?!

Yes, it's sad that Toyota had to partner with BMW to give us a car that is mostly Bavarian, yet still a good driving car, but its even sadder that Nissan gave us a reskinned 370 with nothing really special to write home about :/

 

[because_murica]

The Z still feels less sporty than the Supra regardless of the transmission differences.

Fact is the Z is just way too heavy. Take a look at C&D's braking metrics; the Supra beats the Z by a bus length from 100-0. If you translate that to the track that means the Supra can brake later into the turns instead of early. The tires are also overwhelmed of the weight too. Damn thing needs a diet or a better tire and suspension setup.

I'm sure the Nismo Z will be much better but it'll certainly cost $$more$$. At that point why not just buy a used M2 or Cayman?!

Yes, it's sad that Toyota had to partner with BMW to give us a car that is mostly Bavarian, yet still a good driving car, but its even sadder that Nissan gave us a reskinned 370 with nothing really special to write home about :/

Yeaaa, no to all of that. The saddest thing though is seeing Supra go hards join a Z forum to defend their car. I mean, why?

 

[Orveezy]

Yeaaa, no to all of that. The saddest thing though is seeing Supra go hards join a Z forum to defend their car. I mean, why?

Im on this forum because I thought of selling my Supra for a Z and now these reviews makes me think otherwise. The Performance trim Z will most certainly cost above 60k after ADM. These reviews just don’t convince me that the Z is worth the ADM. It’s still a tough sell at MSRP. Regardless, Nissan gets an “A” for effort.

 

[Denver the Last Dinosaur]

And I'm failing to see why we're discounting autoXers, drag racers, and track people as not real car enthusiasts because a traditional manual conflicts with their goals.

Those would be "motor sport enthusiasts" / "professionals drivers" driving usually-modified cars, which is a different category to a "car enthusiast" driving a normal road car.

Besides which, most track racers prefer manual as well. Formula One drivers for instance use manual flappy paddle gear changes, not automatic. Rally drivers prefer to use a manual. I don't know about Indy Car, but then they only go around a big circle, so they don't even know what corners are, so sticking their foot to the floor is all they need to do anyway.

Plus, if all you're worried about is 0-60 times, than for a road car you may as well just get an electric car. They tend to be far faster (since all the power goes to the wheel instantly) and don't use any gear changes at all to "slow" them down ... and that's all you'll be able to buy new in about 10 years anyway.

 

[because_murica]

Dude, no one is upset. We're all being civil here. Btw, fixed that ^ for you.

Yes, no one here or anywhere on this site ever said the MKV was a shit car. It very clearly is not. However, it also very clearly is not a Supra. If they had called it something completely different, it would have been highly doubtful that 1. anyone would care it's mostly BMW, and 2. that any rivalry with the new Z would have arisen.

But the car scene has changed I guess. People don't seem to care about the genesis of a product as long as it's "good" or "better" than the alternative. You sound like one of those people. There's nothing wrong with that, but maybe people like that should avoid joining Z forums - a group of enthusiasts that love Z in part because of its heritage. So to come onto a Z forum knowing that the most of the people here are likely enthusiasts because the Z's story since 1969, and extolling your MKV as "superior" simply because it's faster in certain metrics (like the bullshit auto v. manual comparative from C&D) just seems silly. I don't think most of us here care that the MKV is faster than the Z out of the box.

P.S.
Those of us with deep pockets will even out the fight, don't you worry

 

[Blackbeard]

hey my girlfriend always tells people if he could ride a missile with wheel he would ... lol

 

[Denton]

No real suprises there - just a bunch of "enthusiasts" that bought into an automatic Toyota built by a third company using BMW parts. You know, the real, hardcore car guys

P.S. - most ot them probably can't even drive stick

Pot meet kettle?

Edit: sorry you didn't say they had bad attitudes...