(Hawaii) Performance Trim finally arrives locally…for only $14,995 markup!!?? 😱🤪🤬

NecioVato

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For the most part, the middle and upper classes have done quite well the past couple of years. Things got cheaper and remained there for a long time.

Almost 13% of buyers have payments of $1,000 or more. The average payment is $700!!!

https://jalopnik.com/a-lot-of-you-are-paying-more-than-1-000-a-month-for-yo-1849620379

With manufacturers turning out "loaded" units, continued higher rates to curb inflation, and manufacturers and dealers rethinking the "loaded" lot inventory posture it's going to be quite a while before things cool down.
I feel like if car manufacturers aren't getting their 'kick back' with the added ADM - I feel like 2 things will either happen. 1. The used market that we are seeing increase bc of multiple reasons will bring the price of ADM and nonsense like that to be either negociatiable or to bring it down. We are starting to see used car prices come down. Once that happens - and more people look for used over new - dealers will be forced to lower the ADM bullsh!t (I do admit with Toyota and Honda slashing their production - it doesn't help us at all) and or 2. Dealers will increase their MSRP to reap the benefits of the higher prices - bc why sell a car at $40k if people are willing to spend $55k and then one can lower the people who work for you etc.

I don't know - I do think it is ending sooner rather than later.
 

takemorepills

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I feel like if car manufacturers aren't getting their 'kick back' with the added ADM - I feel like 2 things will either happen. 1. The used market that we are seeing increase bc of multiple reasons will bring the price of ADM and nonsense like that to be either negociatiable or to bring it down. We are starting to see used car prices come down. Once that happens - and more people look for used over new - dealers will be forced to lower the ADM bullsh!t (I do admit with Toyota and Honda slashing their production - it doesn't help us at all) and or 2. Dealers will increase their MSRP to reap the benefits of the higher prices - bc why sell a car at $40k if people are willing to spend $55k and then one can lower the people who work for you etc.

I don't know - I do think it is ending sooner rather than later.
#2 is happening right now!!
 

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The manufacturer sets the MSRP - Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
 

NecioVato

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The manufacturer sets the MSRP - Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
In my response above - I meant that the manufacturer would raise the price of vehicles bc if there is a large amount of people willing to buy their cars at a higher price - why miss out on the added revenue, especially if they aren’t able to keep up with demand.
 

takemorepills

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In my response above - I meant that the manufacturer would raise the price of vehicles bc if there is a large amount of people willing to buy their cars at a higher price - why miss out on the added revenue, especially if they aren’t able to keep up with demand.
That seems to be what is happening.

For example, the US government is going to renew EV tax credits in 2023. So, what do most manufacturers do? Raise their prices on EVs to match the tax credit. Heck, Ford raised their prices over $8500 for 2023 MY, which is $1K more than the tax credit. Almost all of those price hikes came right after the gov plan to give credits.

Toyota released the 2022 Tundra which was $10K more than the 2021 across the board, and for 2023 they increased another $2K. Toyota saw almost every single Tundra get sold at MSRP+AMV, you better believe they want in on it.

Another thing many manufacturers seemed to do in 2022 to cash in, they began to only make top-end trims. There's way more margins for the manufacturer on higher end models, so they neglected the middle and lower trims.

What will be interesting to see is at what point do consumers break? Dealers that are accustomed to a certain AMV will still be expecting $5K, $10K per transaction. They won't let that go so easily...
 

NecioVato

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That seems to be what is happening.

For example, the US government is going to renew EV tax credits in 2023. So, what do most manufacturers do? Raise their prices on EVs to match the tax credit. Heck, Ford raised their prices over $8500 for 2023 MY, which is $1K more than the tax credit. Almost all of those price hikes came right after the gov plan to give credits.

Toyota released the 2022 Tundra which was $10K more than the 2021 across the board, and for 2023 they increased another $2K. Toyota saw almost every single Tundra get sold at MSRP+AMV, you better believe they want in on it.

Another thing many manufacturers seemed to do in 2022 to cash in, they began to only make top-end trims. There's way more margins for the manufacturer on higher end models, so they neglected the middle and lower trims.

What will be interesting to see is at what point do consumers break? Dealers that are accustomed to a certain AMV will still be expecting $5K, $10K per transaction. They won't let that go so easily...
I had heard that a lot of stipulations had to be met in order for the tax credits to actually occur and that a lot of EVs bc of the current price points were making it so they didn't qualify. Granted I didn't look into it that deeply so I could easily be wrong about this - but it seems by your post - that it is the case.

I think like anything - 2 things will happen - people will realize that the juice is not worth the squeeze meaning that a lot of potential buyers will walk away from that particular car. It seems like a lot of potential buyers on this forum are looking at alternatives and walking away from the Z. To me that is going to start to happen. Especially if interest rates continue to climb - with (using the Z as an example) - we rationalized while this car has yet to meet most reviewers expectations - that the cost of this car was still 'okay with them'. Then we have ADM that is adding on what....$10-15k on some posts so now it's a $65k car. Then add in interest rates that are going much higher to 'help with the inflation' and one has to ask themselves - is THIS car (or any car) worth the extra money that one has to pay. Unless you NEED a car - why buy a car when the market WILL reset - we just need to be patient.

The 2nd thing I HOPE happens - is that the greed of a salesperson or dealer to make a deal will force their hand to compete with other dealers on the added ADM - one has $15k...okay dealer B might have $10k and then dealer C might need/want the sale so they are willing to move this at a lower price point. Hopefully pitting the dealers against one another will allow for better pricing for the consumer.

Don't get me wrong - the new Z is beautiful - but I haven't even been behind the wheel to know already that it will require suspension upgrades and I would want to add a DP, exhaust and intakes with a tune to make the power I want etc.

Bc of all the things I mentioned - it just makes me think - 'yeah, my current 370z is "slow" to some but...it is still a quick enough car and fun car to drive' - that being said - why not look to keep it for another couple of years and see when the market starts to reset itself. Manufacturers and dealers are in the business of making money - I can't realistically see manufacturers limiting their supply to help dealers add ADM. So eventually supply will meet demand - the question becomes 'when' not 'if'
 

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I feel like if car manufacturers aren't getting their 'kick back' with the added ADM - I feel like 2 things will either happen. 1. The used market that we are seeing increase bc of multiple reasons will bring the price of ADM and nonsense like that to be either negociatiable or to bring it down. We are starting to see used car prices come down. Once that happens - and more people look for used over new - dealers will be forced to lower the ADM bullsh!t (I do admit with Toyota and Honda slashing their production - it doesn't help us at all) and or 2. Dealers will increase their MSRP to reap the benefits of the higher prices - bc why sell a car at $40k if people are willing to spend $55k and then one can lower the people who work for you etc.

I don't know - I do think it is ending sooner rather than later.
Dealers cannot raise their MSRP that is a manufacturers MSRP. Dealers can only mark them up from MSRP.
 

NecioVato

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Dealers cannot raise their MSRP that is a manufacturers MSRP. Dealers can only mark them up from MSRP.
Someone else pointed that out and I corrected myself in a post right afterwards. Thanks though
 

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Right now what we're seeing over 90% are Proto sales, so yes crazy markups are expected, it's a limited model. We have to wait how Nissan delivers the other trims, i.e. at what volume numbers. As long as the Performance and Sport come out in trickles there will always be huge markups since again dealers have the freedom to set pricing. It's an ugly situation that might last a while, possibly thru the latter part of 2023. Nothing is different - supply and demand principle. If Nissan is smart to cater to us enthusiasts they must produce the volume, and WITHOUT any build issues. Come on, it's still a updated Z34 after all.

OTOH Rivian is in trouble now with most of it's products recalled for critical steering issues. We can't have this with the new Z rollout, unfortunately already seeing this with the automatic transmission issue. True that Rivian is a small company but the new Z has been hyped up so much that Nissan can't fail this, and us.
 

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That seems to be what is happening.

For example, the US government is going to renew EV tax credits in 2023. So, what do most manufacturers do? Raise their prices on EVs to match the tax credit. Heck, Ford raised their prices over $8500 for 2023 MY, which is $1K more than the tax credit. Almost all of those price hikes came right after the gov plan to give credits.

Toyota released the 2022 Tundra which was $10K more than the 2021 across the board, and for 2023 they increased another $2K. Toyota saw almost every single Tundra get sold at MSRP+AMV, you better believe they want in on it.

Another thing many manufacturers seemed to do in 2022 to cash in, they began to only make top-end trims. There's way more margins for the manufacturer on higher end models, so they neglected the middle and lower trims.

What will be interesting to see is at what point do consumers break? Dealers that are accustomed to a certain AMV will still be expecting $5K, $10K per transaction. They won't let that go so easily...
First of all Subaru did raise their MSRP across the board for 2023 models but only 500 to 1500 depending on the model due tp new safety features becoming standard and some cost issues. Had nothing to do to try to recoup ADM money. That would only make sales slow way down if had huge price increase. Not every dealer is adding ADM to their cars only the greedy dealers are doing it right now. Which will only hurt them in the long run. As far as the EV tax credit why would any manufacturer raise prices due to no more tax credits that is absurd statement and makes no sense at all. The tax credit is not real cash off the price of a car it is only helpful if you owe taxes at the end of the year. So if tax credit is 7500 and you owe 4000 you only have to pay 3500. Why would anyone raise prices due to that? And even worse that would kill EV sales which the removal of the tax credit has totally stopped anyone from leasing a Solterra. Why you ask....because when you lease a Solterra the tax credit is immediately taken off the price of the car as real money because the leasing company (CHASE AUTO FINANCE) gets the tax credit not the customer leasing the car. So now without getting 7500 towards the lease your payment goes up per month roughly 240.00 and makes the car a very bad lease deal. Granted Subaru this year only making 6000 units of this vehicle but between the total stop sale of the Solterra due to the wheels coming off the car which they now have the fix for it and will ship them soon and the removal of the tax credit the demand has fallen off. So anyway yes the car market is a mess right and yes interest rates have gone up but none of this has hurt our car sales here yet. Sooner or later inventory will get back to normal which is most likely by Spring time then back to regular selling as it should be. The dealers who took advantage of the shortage by price gauging will lose sales in the future due to the way they acted during this time. This will also hurt those dealers in their service department. So how much did they gain by over charging customers compared to what they will lose in the future. I will take the way we do it here all day long and we will continue to service our customers the way our loyal customers should be treated. My only complaint right now is that I want to but a new 2023 Z and Nissan has totally screwed that up.
 

NecioVato

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First of all Subaru did raise their MSRP across the board for 2023 models but only 500 to 1500 depending on the model due tp new safety features becoming standard and some cost issues. Had nothing to do to try to recoup ADM money. That would only make sales slow way down if had huge price increase. Not every dealer is adding ADM to their cars only the greedy dealers are doing it right now. Which will only hurt them in the long run. As far as the EV tax credit why would any manufacturer raise prices due to no more tax credits that is absurd statement and makes no sense at all. The tax credit is not real cash off the price of a car it is only helpful if you owe taxes at the end of the year. So if tax credit is 7500 and you owe 4000 you only have to pay 3500. Why would anyone raise prices due to that? And even worse that would kill EV sales which the removal of the tax credit has totally stopped anyone from leasing a Solterra. Why you ask....because when you lease a Solterra the tax credit is immediately taken off the price of the car as real money because the leasing company (CHASE AUTO FINANCE) gets the tax credit not the customer leasing the car. So now without getting 7500 towards the lease your payment goes up per month roughly 240.00 and makes the car a very bad lease deal. Granted Subaru this year only making 6000 units of this vehicle but between the total stop sale of the Solterra due to the wheels coming off the car which they now have the fix for it and will ship them soon and the removal of the tax credit the demand has fallen off. So anyway yes the car market is a mess right and yes interest rates have gone up but none of this has hurt our car sales here yet. Sooner or later inventory will get back to normal which is most likely by Spring time then back to regular selling as it should be. The dealers who took advantage of the shortage by price gauging will lose sales in the future due to the way they acted during this time. This will also hurt those dealers in their service department. So how much did they gain by over charging customers compared to what they will lose in the future. I will take the way we do it here all day long and we will continue to service our customers the way our loyal customers should be treated. My only complaint right now is that I want to but a new 2023 Z and Nissan has totally screwed that up.
The only issue with dealers that are charging ADM or if they are charging MSRP - but optioning them out with EVERY single dealer add on (which to me is still gouging the customer) is that around here - it seems like EVERY dealer has charged markups or added ‘forced options’ - so there will not be a situation as a consumer where one can be like ‘I’ll never go to that dealer or I won’t get my car serviced there’. Granted this is for the car enthusiast/niche vehicles such as the Civic Type R, Supra, Jeeps (at least during the pandemic) and now the Z.

To me - forget about ‘going to another dealer out of principle‘ - I’ll take having a supply of vehicles on the lots so one can look to actually haggle or pit dealers against one another for your business. Who would have thought we would be at a point where MSRP is considered a good deal and a dealer like CarMax is not considered outrageous anymore haha
 
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Donalex

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The Tax Credit for EVs goes to the consumer. You are - by law - allowed to keep that, if you want. The same as a Rebate.

IF you want to make it "down payment money", you'll sign an "Assignment Authorization" which tells the Federal Government you want it applied to your financed vehicle.

No one can arbitrarily dictate where that money goes.

Already, the CHIPS Act has spurred companies to build chip factories. A $20 Billion plant has been proposed in the Northeast, for instance. 4,500 new jobs.

It seems the dealers are correcting the assumption that New Car sales is the least profitable revenue source in a store. These Addendum Care Packages are HIGHWAY ROBBERY. Some stores use that markup to give more on your trade but it's illusionary. I'll mark up my car $5,000 on a package that costs me $100 so I can give you $4,900 more.
 

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The Tax Credit for EVs goes to the consumer. You are - by law - allowed to keep that, if you want. The same as a Rebate.

IF you want to make it "down payment money", you'll sign an "Assignment Authorization" which tells the Federal Government you want it applied to your financed vehicle.

No one can arbitrarily dictate where that money goes.

Already, the CHIPS Act has spurred companies to build chip factories. A $20 Billion plant has been proposed in the Northeast, for instance. 4,500 new jobs.

It seems the dealers are correcting the assumption that New Car sales is the least profitable revenue source in a store. These Addendum Care Packages are HIGHWAY ROBBERY. Some stores use that markup to give more on your trade but it's illusionary. I'll mark up my car $5,000 on a package that costs me $100 so I can give you $4,900 more.
wrong about tax credit...It is not like a rebate at all........totally wrong.....only way you get it as cash down is on a lease which now is gone due to new laws by the federal govt. I do this for a living.....
 

Donalex

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Really...the IRS begs to differ. It's a tax issue, no? And, my understanding in the new law is that the government wants to provide that credit immediately through the dealer.

Related Forms
The 30D(a) credit is claimed on Form 8936, Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit (Including Qualified Two- or Three-Wheeled Plug-in Electric Vehicles)PDF.

The 30G(g) credit is claimed on Form 8934, Qualified Plug-in Electric and Electric Vehicle Credit PDF.

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deducti...manufacturer sells 200,000 qualified vehicles.
 
 





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