Toyota GR Corolla vs Nissan Z

[240SX]

 

[DevonK]

Here it's a two year wait for the GR.

 

[StrikeS30]

I bet you there's no way in hell you're getting a GR Corolla for 40k. Thing is going to go the way of the Focus RS.

 

[NecioVato]

For a lot of cars - it feels like the best thing to do is wait for a slightly used one - I feel that the ADM being added to both of these cars will make it difficult to get. Hopefully by the time a lot of cars are being released - this car bubble will have burst and things will go back to normal - where paying MSRP or slight ADM is the norm and not what we are currently seeing - where people are more than willing to pay well over MSRP for a new one and even a used one for that matter (looking at you Honda CTR....looking at you) haha

 

[G37]

For a lot of cars - it feels like the best thing to do is wait for a slightly used one - I feel that the ADM being added to both of these cars will make it difficult to get. Hopefully by the time a lot of cars are being released - this car bubble will have burst and things will go back to normal - where paying MSRP or slight ADM is the norm and not what we are currently seeing - where people are more than willing to pay well over MSRP for a new one and even a used one for that matter (looking at you Honda CTR....looking at you) haha

Don’t look at the cars - look at the dummies paying the ADM. But yeah, the ADM to some degree should work it’s way out of used cars.

 

[NecioVato]

Don’t look at the cars - look at the dummies paying the ADM. But yeah, the ADM to some degree should work it’s way out of used cars.

The problem is - for instance - I have been thinking of keeping my current Z and then making it into a long-term project car - doing the whole twin turbo setup etc. But then look for another 'fun daily' at least; and that list is VERY SHORT - basically I want either the Honda CTR - either the current gen or the new one or the Corolla GR. The new CTR and Corolla GR just isn't going to be a reality bc of the stupidity of others paying way over MSRP to get their hands on one. Throw in the shortages whether real or not and it is going to be difficult to get one at MSRP. I'm basically wanting a hatch, 4 doors with a fun factor - I've had a GTI in the past - and while I loved that car - when it would break - it would BREAK haha. And the Golf R market used for a MK7.5 is just as bad as the CTR market.

So - on my list - that kinda leaves the current gen Honda CTR - which if you look at the used car market - is STILL bonkers. I can only hope the releasing of the new ones will FINALLY open up the flood gats on the CTR and get pricing for a used car back to normal along with all the future repos that will be happening by end of year.

 

[G37]

I think - and have said as much - that the GR Corolla and the CTR are great alternatives to the Z Sport as they are more complete cars (essentially needing nothing) whereas the Sport is sorely lacking - needs LSD, larger brakes and Michelins (wheels too if that’s your preference). Some say the Toyobaru twins also fall into the same category but it’s lack of power is no easy fix, adding $10K to do it right and voiding the warranty in the process. But I digress… The problem is that the ADM on ANY desirable car today - Z, CTR, GRC or otherwise - means the total acquisition cost will be an amount prudent buyers simply will in most cases simply not pay.

 

[G37]

The problem is - for instance - I have been thinking of keeping my current Z and then making it into a long-term project car - doing the whole twin turbo setup etc. But then look for another 'fun daily' at least; and that list is VERY SHORT - basically I want either the Honda CTR - either the current gen or the new one or the Corolla GR. The new CTR and Corolla GR just isn't going to be a reality bc of the stupidity of others paying way over MSRP to get their hands on one. Throw in the shortages whether real or not and it is going to be difficult to get one at MSRP. I'm basically wanting a hatch, 4 doors with a fun factor - I've had a GTI in the past - and while I loved that car - when it would break - it would BREAK haha. And the Golf R market used for a MK7.5 is just as bad as the CTR market.

So - on my list - that kinda leaves the current gen Honda CTR - which if you look at the used car market - is STILL bonkers. I can only hope the releasing of the new ones will FINALLY open up the flood gats on the CTR and get pricing for a used car back to normal along with all the future repos that will be happening by end of year.

The shortages are very real across all industries. As for your patience and unwillingness to overpay, kudos to you!

 

[NecioVato]

The shortages are very real across all industries. As for your patience and unwillingness to overpay, kudos to you!

Everyone 'has a price' - at this point - would I pay $5k over MSRP for some worthless addons by the dealer - hmm....depending on the car - maybe. I hate to say it - but the CTR in 2017 when people were paying over MSRP winded up holding its value overall. Granted - we have to take into consideration the pandemic that just FUBAR'd the market. Right now - it just doesn't feel right paying over MSRP for a car that the manufacturer listed at a much lower cost. And to be honest - when you start to hit that $50-60k price point - we all know once we start comparing it to used cars out there - it opens up a HUGE amount of cars that you can choose from.

If you check out some of the YouTube vids by Lucky Lopez, YAA and even some of the financial vloggers - the repo crisis is real and going to affect the car market. Dealers are paying a lot less for wholesale prices of cars thus will let it go for those that are holding onto something they paid much more for - trying to recoup that money - eventually the dam is going to break and the prices will start coming down allowing the average buyer to get one. but....we will see I guess

 

[G37]

Everyone 'has a price' - at this point - would I pay $5k over MSRP for some worthless addons by the dealer - hmm....depending on the car - maybe. I hate to say it - but the CTR in 2017 when people were paying over MSRP winded up holding its value overall. Granted - we have to take into consideration the pandemic that just FUBAR'd the market. Right now - it just doesn't feel right paying over MSRP for a car that the manufacturer listed at a much lower cost. And to be honest - when you start to hit that $50-60k price point - we all know once we start comparing it to used cars out there - it opens up a HUGE amount of cars that you can choose from.

If you check out some of the YouTube vids by Lucky Lopez, YAA and even some of the financial vloggers - the repo crisis is real and going to affect the car market. Dealers are paying a lot less for wholesale prices of cars thus will let it go for those that are holding onto something they paid much more for - trying to recoup that money - eventually the dam is going to break and the prices will start coming down allowing the average buyer to get one. but....we will see I guess

All true. There’s some merit to paying ADM (to a point) on certain models. The 2017+ CTR holding its value was an anomaly (& a credit to how good a performance car Honda can make) that couldn’t then be foreseen. If you paid $45K+ (nearly $10K ADM!) for your 17 CTR & it has 40K miles today, there’s one on Carmax with that mileage selling for $41K, validating your point. CTRs were production-limited to about 350 per month. Though demand was much higher, the factory in England couldn’t produce more than they did. From 2017-2021 about 20K CTRs were sold in the US. With CTR production now in Japan, Honda clearly plans on making a lot more of them (whenever the supply chain woes subside) which will eventually yield sane prices at or near MSRP.

The last new car I bought was in 7/2013, a 2014 MDX. As hot as that car was at the time, I still paid only $1100 over invoice while many paid MSRP+ (always buy at a high volume dealer). That has left me ill prepared - mentally - to pay above MSRP today but if I want a Z within the next two years I’m gonna have to change my thinking. I’m over 50 and already having a fun car affords me the patience (hopefully) to wait until I don’t have to pay big ADM. That said, the MDX was a commodity car that should sell for below MSRP whereas a sports/performance generally sells for more. Still, I recall the 370Z selling well below MSRP for many years. That could happen again with the Z/CTR/GRC in the long run, though the 370 was admittedly ancient and in low demand for its last 5 years of production. Given Nissan’s financial situation they’ll surely crank out as many Z cars that they can make, be it 10K per year, 20K or more, whatever the market can support, so prices will eventually fall. However, if I were 30 years old +/-, I’d expect my patience wouldn’t allow me to wait so long and I can certainly understand paying $5K to get the car now, especially for those in the snow belt who only have a 6-8 month driving window each year. BTW, thanks for the Lucky Lopez, YAA tip. I’ll check it out.

 

[NecioVato]

All true. There’s some merit to paying ADM (to a point) on certain models. The 2017+ CTR holding its value was an anomaly (& a credit to how good a performance car Honda can make) that couldn’t then be foreseen. If you paid $45K+ (nearly $10K ADM!) for your 17 CTR & it has 40K miles today, there’s one on Carmax with that mileage selling for $41K, validating your point. CTRs were production-limited to about 350 per month. Though demand was much higher, the factory in England couldn’t produce more than they did. From 2017-2021 about 20K CTRs were sold in the US. With CTR production now in Japan, Honda clearly plans on making a lot more of them (whenever the supply chain woes subside) which will eventually yield sane prices at or near MSRP.

The last new car I bought was in 7/2013, a 2014 MDX. As hot as that car was at the time, I still paid only $1100 over invoice while many paid MSRP+ (always buy at a high volume dealer). That has left me ill prepared - mentally - to pay above MSRP today but if I want a Z within the next two years I’m gonna have to change my thinking. I’m over 50 and already having a fun car affords me the patience (hopefully) to wait until I don’t have to pay big ADM. That said, the MDX was a commodity car that should sell for below MSRP whereas a sports/performance generally sells for more. Still, I recall the 370Z selling well below MSRP for many years. That could happen again with the Z/CTR/GRC in the long run, though the 370 was admittedly ancient and in low demand for its last 5 years of production. Given Nissan’s financial situation they’ll surely crank out as many Z cars that they can make, be it 10K per year, 20K or more, whatever the market can support, so prices will eventually fall. However, if I were 30 years old +/-, I’d expect my patience wouldn’t allow me to wait so long and I can certainly understand paying $5K to get the car now, especially for those in the snow belt who only have a 6-8 month driving window each year. BTW, thanks for the Lucky Lopez, YAA tip. I’ll check it out.

I don’t think I have ever bought a brand new car. I just feel in ‘normal times’ - they typically depreciate quite a bit after you drive it off the lot. Granted if you keep your vehicle for a very long time - than depreciation is not a factor but just ensuring that you have a vehicle that hasn’t been beaten on (especially when discussing sport cars).

I do feel that if you are patient - you’ll be able to score one - maybe not at invoice but I believe MSRP is possible. One of the main reasons I feel this way is bc I feel Nissan is feeling a lot of pressure to have this be successful and not to make this a limited run vehicle; so the sales will be important vs if dealers are turning off the public bc of high ADM - then that is only going to hurt the brand. I know they can’t do anything about it - but I feel they have as much of a vested interest in this as those that are excited about it do.

I feel if you can wait - the used market for the Z I think will be much bigger once people who get these - then look to move onto the Nismo edition thus trading in their Z. Just my .02

Regardless good luck with your search once they start arriving.

 

[DevonK]

If this were truly an all-new Z I would also hesitate about jumping in during the first year or so of production. But let's face it, it is basically a reskin with a few suspension upgrades, a new LSD, an infotainment system ported over from other Nissan models, and a "new" engine that is a known entity having been used by Infiniti for years with no major issues. Oh and they also fixed the clutch slave cylinder weakness the 370Z suffered from. The 350Z, OTOH, was an all-new platform at the time.

 

[DevonK]

GR Corolla interests me as well, but I have been told by a Toyota sales manager I'd be looking at about a two year wait here so that settles that.

 

[G37]

If this were truly an all-new Z I would also hesitate about jumping in during the first year or so of production. But let's face it, it is basically a reskin with a few suspension upgrades, a new LSD, an infotainment system ported over from other Nissan models, and a "new" engine that is a known entity having been used by Infiniti for years with no major issues. Oh and they also fixed the clutch slave cylinder weakness the 370Z suffered from. The 350Z, OTOH, was an all-new platform at the time.

With supply chain issues ongoing, there’s every reason to believe that there’ll be snafus when it comes to assembly. Parts manufacturers have to undoubtedly source their components from multiple (and possibly unfamiliar) vendors to obtain what was previously easily obtained from their regular supplier/s. Problems, quality control concerns and the like always rear their ugly heads with new models and I’d expect this to be especially true given todays chip shortages, etc. despite the Z being new-ish and not a completely new model.

 

[Y_PLZ]

A side by side look with the Z.